July 7th People's Independent Inquiry Forum -> Hearing Transcripts

Hearing Transcripts - Discussion, Anomalies etc

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Kier

Posted: Oct 13 2010, 09:49 AM

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Joined: 7-December 05

QUOTE (11.10.10 AM)

Once all the people had returned to their original
4 cars, the Honda Civic, with its three people on board,
5 was followed away from the meeting in Crawley to an
6 address in Leeds, an address to which the car was in
7 fact registered under the name of a lady called
8 Hasina Patel.

This goes a long way to explaining the original reports of Rachid Facha.

I remember musings at the time that it seemed Khan had been traced through his wife, and the wrong guy, also married to a Hasina Patel, was given by the media. It was spelt wrongly anyway, IIRC amtte found the marriage certificate between Hasina Patel and Rashid Sacha.
Maybe the media were given the name Hasina Patel and they searched about to find Hasina Patel in the Dewsbury area and found the wrong one?

Bridget

Posted: Oct 13 2010, 03:51 PM

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QUOTE ("13/10/10 AM")

14 Q. Can you recall when it was that you started to look at
15 the CCTV cameras at King's Cross?
16 A. We started to look at the CCTV cameras at King's Cross
17 immediately.
18 Q. On the 7th?
19 A. Immediately on the 7th, but because our focus at that
20 stage was on platform footage, it was set to one side at
21 that point because there was no coverage.
22 Q. Do you recall how many CCTV cameras there were, in fact,
23 at King's Cross at that time?
24 A. King's Cross, there was, I understand, a temporary
25 system in place and there were 76 cameras that were

5

1 effectively working on one-second movements between each
2 camera at that time.
3 Q. Did you then turn your attention, following the receipt
4 of information as to the persons who might have been
5 responsible for the attacks, to trying to spot them
6 through examination of the CCTV cameras at King's Cross
7 and at the Thameslink station?
8 A. There was -- information from the bomb scenes led us to
9 review that potentially there could be the potential of
10 a suicide -- it could have been a suicide attack, so
11 I had the King's Cross tape reviewed for that purpose.
12 Q. Can you recall on what day you first spotted a number of
13 men walking through the King's Cross area, in particular
14 through the Thameslink station carrying rucksacks?
15 A. It was on 11 July 2005, sir.
16 Q. So on the Monday?
17 A. It was, yes.
18 Q. Can you recall what it was about the appearance of those
19 men on the CCTV that alerted you to the fact that you
20 might have identified the bombers?
21 A. My officer, who was engaged in the actual CCTV recovery,
22 was ex-military. He saw the four individuals walking
23 through and they were walking two by two and he felt it
24 was significant. They were carrying large rucksacks and
25 he brought my attention to it. I concurred with him

6

1 that it was a matter of priority for us.

I was very confused at this point as DC Kindness seemed to infer there was no CCTV footage from KX. A great deal of footage was shown of the 28/6/05 despite DC Kindness claiming that LU only keep CCTV for 7 days. This included the purchasing of tickets to the underground at KX from outside KX mainline station. Video shown from the 7/7 showed them descending down the stairs at KX Thameslink but the timings were showing 07.22.44, despite similar footage shown from the 28/06 not showing a similar discrepancy in these timings (afair).

3 of the witnesses (Sylvia Waugh, Susan Clarke and Joseph Martoccia) all described 4-6 men. Ben Leech describes 3 men on his Thameslink carriage and Karl Sylvester described 2 on his carriage (carriage 4) implying they travelled separately from Luton to KX.

The Micra parking ticket was purchased at 6.56 and expired at 2am on 8/07/05. The Micra was issued with a PCN on 11/07/05 - why wasn't it towed away the same day as in the case of the Brava? The Brava's PCN was issued at 5.53 am on the 7th and apparently there is CCTV of it being towed away that evening.

Susan Clarke approaches a BTP officer at St Pancras with details she had taken of the Micra on Tuesday 12th July (she'd also taken a picture of the car and noted it didn't have any wheel caps).

user posted image

http://7julyinquests.independent.gov.uk/ev.../INQ10054-2.pdf

This post has been edited by Bridget on Oct 13 2010, 06:08 PM

Bridget	Posted: Oct 13 2010, 04:17 PM
Group: J7 Admins Posts: 15,080 Member No.: 2 Joined: 26-November 05	As the timings on the CCTV shown today hadn't been pixellated , 28/6 08.10.07 Enter Luton 08.14.26 Go through barriers 08.15.07 Enter platform 7/7 07.21.54 Enter Luton 07.22.29 Ticket hall 07.22.43 Go through barriers 07.23.27 On platform 07.24.47 Train arrives 07.24.56 Board 07.25.36 Train leaves Presumably you can move in less than half the time when carrying bomb-laden rucksacks! This post has been edited by Bridget on Oct 13 2010, 04:18 PM

Bridget

Posted: Oct 13 2010, 05:55 PM

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QUOTE ("13/10/10 am")

1 A. This is again the alternate view of the front-on view as
2 they come down the stairs.
3 In the next image, this is the last sighting of
4 Lindsay, Khan and Tanweer. This was the first CCTV
5 sighting that we had on the unit on this enquiry as they
6 pass through towards the underground station.
7 Q. Is this at the King's Cross Thameslink end of the
8 passage or of the King's Cross underground end?
9 A. This is at the Thameslink end.
10 Q. Is that the last sighting of the four bombers together?
11 A. That's correct, sir, yes.
12 Q. My Lady, with your leave, we'll return tomorrow to the
13 remainder of the CCTV evidence, which is concerned with
14 Hussain in the King's Cross area, the remaining footage,
15 or a very short selection of footage, in relation to the
16 Aldgate platform, and the footage that exists in
17 relation to the number 30 bus.

Doesn't sound as if they are intending to show anything new, if in fact they have it.

Bridget

Posted: Oct 13 2010, 07:58 PM

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Mr Patterson representing the bereaved asks the sort of questions that Hugo Keith avoids. This is the iconic image of euphoric huggers, shame that the descriptions don't match some of the men.

QUOTE ("13/10/10 pm")

6 MR PATTERSON: I'll repeat, Mr Martoccia. There were
7 a number of people in the group, you went into a meeting
8 that morning, came out of the meeting about 11.00 and
9 learned of the news that was coming through about the
10 bombings.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You went home and watched or listened to the news that
13 evening about the bombings, is that right?
14 A. Actually, because the trains were in a bit of chaos, my
15 secretary sent a car for me from Cambridge. So I was
16 actually listening to the news reports unfolding during
17 the afternoon, the journey back from -- it was Harrow,
18 up to Cambridge. So it was that afternoon that I learnt
19 about it, and that's when I picked up the details and
20 made the call the following morning.
21 Q. Right. So you appreciated immediately that you may well
22 have seen the bombers?
23 A. Indeed, yes, yes.
24 Q. As you say, you rang the police the very next morning.
25 A. Yes.

50

1 Q. Obviously you were aware that what you had seen would be
2 important in terms of the police investigation into
3 identifying the bombers.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So the statement that you made was on 27 July within
6 a few weeks when things were obviously very fresh in
7 your memory?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. In the statement, what you said was four to six men.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So presumably, although you couldn't be certain about
12 it, that was your best --
13 A. Yes, it was.
14 Q. -- estimate of the number in the group, is that right?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. Today, obviously, five years later, you wouldn't seek to
17 change that, that remains --
18 A. I couldn't honestly say that, you know, it was four or
19 definitely six now. It was --
20 Q. Four or five?
21 A. Indeed.
22 Q. That was the group?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You've described their behaviour and I don't ask you
25 about that other than simply I think the word you used

51

1 in your statement was they almost appeared "euphoric"?
2 A. Yes, indeed.
3 Q. Such was their happiness and excitement?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. One of the people that you described -- I'm looking at
6 your statement on the second page -- in the following
7 terms:
8 "He was shorter than the others ..."
9 You've touched upon this shorter man.
10 "... shorter than the 6' 2" man, in his late teens,
11 fairly slight in build, heavily gelled, curly hair,
12 green rucksack."
13 The top that he was wearing you described as being
14 white.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Was that an accurate description in that statement made
17 back in July 2005?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So a white top?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Late teens and, in terms of his height, roughly what
22 sort of height did he seem to be?
23 A. 5' 6", something like that, probably no more than that.
24 Q. This person with a white top with a green rucksack,
25 those were details that you remembered and that you

52

1 passed on to the police?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You have indicated that you only saw Asian-looking men
4 and you don't remember seeing an Afro-Caribbean-looking
5 man?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. In particular, image number 2 that was just shown to you
8 a moment or two ago, who we know to be Jermaine Lindsay,
9 you don't remember seeing him?
10 A. No, no.
11 Q. At the time, you didn't remember seeing him?
12 A. No.
13 Q. The man that you saw heading in the direction of the
14 Piccadilly Line is the man who you've identified from
15 the pictures as being -- who we know to be
16 Hasib Hussain?
17 A. Yes, number 1.
18 MR PATTERSON: Thank you very much. I have no more
19 questions.

Sinclair	Posted: Oct 13 2010, 10:00 PM
Group: J7 Forum Team Posts: 4,051 Member No.: 18 Joined: 24-January 06	This post has been edited by Sinclair on Oct 13 2010, 10:01 PM

Sinclair

Posted: Oct 13 2010, 10:03 PM

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QUOTE (July 7 Inquests 13th Oct am)

....
MR KEITH: As we'll see in due course, there was obviously
24 a strong correlation between the times at which they
25 arrived at Luton on 28 June and the times that they were

23

1 at Luton on 7 July.
2 [B][DETECTIVE INSPECTOR EWAN KINDNESS] A.� That's correct, sir.
3 Q. In relation to the parking spaces, was there also
4 a correlation there?
5 [DETECTIVE INSPECTOR EWAN KINDNESS] A.� Yes, there was.[/B]
6 Q. Who can we see there?
7 [DETECTIVE INSPECTOR EWAN KINDNESS] A.� That's Mohammed Sidique Khan who goes and gets a ticket
8 for the parking, and shortly you'll see Shehzad Tanweer
9 exit the vehicle. Mohammed Khan is wearing
10 light-coloured trousers with side pockets and a green
11 T-shirt and a light-coloured baseball cap, clearly not
12 apparent on this image, but we'll see that when he gets
13 to the station.
14 Shehzad Tanweer is wearing light-coloured tracksuit
15 bottoms, a dark T-shirt with "Puma" written in white
16 across the chest.
17 Q. Officer, it may be self-evident, but presumably your
18 officers have had to look at the material again and
19 again and again and again, in order to be able to see
20 anything of assistance from what to us appears a pretty
21 difficult grainy image?
22 [DETECTIVE INSPECTOR EWAN KINDNESS] A.� Of course, and we've got the benefit of referring to
23 this imagery when this precis is compiled, we're looking
24 at it holistically, in terms of the images where we know
25 what the clothing is that they're wearing. Clearly on

24

1 these images, that can't be identified.

.....

8 Q. If we may pause it there, there's been a great deal of
9 comment on certain websites and on the internet about
10 the accuracy of that, amongst other pictures, the
11 pictures of the three men outside the station on
12 28 June. [There has been a great deal of comment regarding the 'July 7' 'railing' photo, certainly, but hardly 'a great deal of comment' regarding the June 28 image.� Strange that the question should centre around this.]�
There's been comment about the accuracy of the
13 CCTV that we've seen there.
14 Can you help us, please, about the way in which CCTV
15 records images? Is it a continuous, moving recording of
16 what is going on in front of the camera, or is there
17 a jump or any kind of break in that recording process?
18[DETECTIVE INSPECTOR EWAN KINDNESS] A.� If you were -- yes, there is. If you had a real-time
19 camera recording real-time activity then there would be
20 no jump and the movements would be fluid as us standing
21 here today. The situation with a number of systems is
22 that they have to compromise in the update time of the
23 CCTV system in order to cover a number of cameras in
24 their system. So then what you will have is a break of
25 time whilst the system updates.

27

1 Potentially, that is data that's not on the system
2 and you won't be able to find. So that can sometimes
3 show -- it appears as though there's parts of the
4 footage missing, but they just haven't been recorded
5 because of the update process.
6 Q. Do you have any grounds whatsoever for doubting the
7 accuracy of the images recorded and retained by the CCTV
8 system?
9 [DETECTIVE INSPECTOR EWAN KINDNESS] A. This CCTV system? 100 per cent confident, sir.� [100% confident of grounds for doubting or 100% confident of the accuracy, or is KINDNESS just 100% confident� ? -� Note that KINDNESS does not answer the question put to him]

The CCTV discussed in the coroner's court on 13th October 2010, morning session, pages 26 to 35 would appear to be from the June 28th CCTV footage. KINDNESS stated earlier that there was usually a 7 day retention of London Underground CCTV before over-writing & 14 days retention before over-writingon on mainline station CCTV.

No probing questions as to how the June 28th footage was retained/discovered on 11th July, though....

QUOTE

Page 35

3 Q. Yes, quite a difference, and this is the material that
4 is generally overwritten within seven days?
5 A. This material is a very rare base to try to actually
6 find this on CCTV systems. [??? - 'a very rare base to try to actually find' ? what does this mean. Does the court query this statement?:]
7 Q. Then back to King's Cross Thameslink.
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. How long were they in London, roughly, on that occasion?
10 A. They sort of -- back at King's Cross Thameslink at
11 12.50. So we're looking at nearly five hours. Well,
12 four hours, four and a half hours.
13 Q. Yes, just over three, I suppose.
14 Then after that, there are, I think, some ten or
15 eleven further clips of them arriving back at Luton
16 railway station, but for our purposes, that concludes
17 the CCTV in relation to their presence in London on that
18 day.
19 A. That's correct, sir.
20 Q. So we've not played, today, those sections relating to
21 Luton railway station.
22 A. That's correct.

This post has been edited by Sinclair on Oct 13 2010, 10:28 PM

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