This guy gets up at 3am and walks out into the night fully armed. Then he proceeds to go into an Afghan village and shoots up 16 civilians including some kids. Obviously, no apology is going to go down in this case. I'm not sure how the US will recover from it, or even if it can, short of publicly executing the soldier in front of a firing squad.

A sad day. Obviously the guy was traumatized, but no Afghan is going to care.

Best, Josh.

When they put our soldiers in an insane country with an insane religion that insanely loves to kill, guess what happens?

We should have gone in, lay waste to the Taliban and gotten out. We can't even build our own nation and the idiotic government wants to rebuild other nations? It's our own fault for becoming stupid, ignorant people who continue to reelect idiots.

Thomas

This soldier spent two tours in Iraq before being sent to Afghanistan. Then he snaps and kills 16 civilians, 9 of them children.
Obama apologizes.
After Iraq, was this fellow thoroughly assessed for mental fitness? If not, that's a big error in procedure.
Will Obama's apology have a positive effect? Probably not, because the Afghans will (understandably) believe that something went wrong, and an "I'm terribly sorry." isn't enough to stop it from happening again?

So, what to do now?

AC

An error in procedure? Do you actually believe a procedure is going to detect such a severe mental condition? I wonder why so many people see things like this so simplistically, and not just Canadians either. Maybe Canada does mental health evaluations with it's little army, but that's impossible with hundreds of thousands of troops.

Maybe all hell will break lose and the Afghans with really open up on US troops and after several thousand Afghans die, maybe our government will be forced to pull out.

Thomas

Thomas, I knew as soon as I said "error in procedure", you'd be all over it.

But, your suggestion is to get so many Americans and Afghans killed that the remaining Americans pull out!

Any serious suggestions, Thomas, to deal with the fallout, or to lessen the risk of it happening again?
In conflicts like Iraq and Afghanistan, how many back-to-back tours are enough, before soldiers snap, regardless of where they are (in their homes, on the battlefield, in the villages)?

AC

If a soldier volunteers to go back to one of those countries he doesn't need a test or evaluation; he's crazy. If he's forced to go back after serving a tour his commanders are crazy. If we are still there after ten years the whole bunch is crazy. It was a mistake to go, and every day there perpetuates and amplifies the mistake. The sooner we get out, the better.

We can't fix everything. There is no dealing with the fallout or lessening the risk of it happen again. The longer we stay the worse it will get. This is a waring tribal society that is the same as it always has been for thousands of years. If we leave they will return to their old ways of fighting each other. It's their way and we should leave them to it. But, the US and other Western countries can't simply leave things alone. They're control freaks who think they know what's best for others. So this sort of thing will continue.

You brought up one thing that's very true, but rarely mentioned by the media; "how many back-to-back tours are enough, before soldiers snap, regardless of where they are (in their homes, on the battlefield, in the villages)?" I can only imagine how many soldiers crack at home and all the terror families have to live with. Our government pushing our troops like this is down right criminal. I know what it feels like to come home and then be sent back into danger. It's one of the most horrible feelings in the world and I only had to do it once and I didn't have a wife and children. It's cruelty on a massive level. Fucking governments, they all suck.

Thomas

I agree with most of this, but I don't think it was a mistake to go. It destroyed the Taliban terror camps aimed at the West and - eventually - destroyed bin Laden. But now, it may be time to call the boys back.

Best, Josh.

Josh, the Taliban is still there, and Bin Laden was in Pakistan. Afghanistan was and still is a waste.

The Taliban is still there, but the terror training camps are not. Bin Laden was found in Pakistan eventually because he fled Afghanistan after the invasion. The Pakis were responsible for hiding him. With friends like that...etc., etc.

Al Qaeda seems to have been eliminated as a real threat because of the number of leaders who have been shot. The original Assassins in the Middle Ages suffered a similar fate. One Muslim leader finally had enough of all the fear and suicide killings and went after the leadership. Even a Hydra can only sprout so many heads before it finally succumbs.

If Bush hadn't invaded Afghanistan, the terror camps would be sprouting all kinds of suicide threats to the West, bin Laden would still be shit disturbing, and al Qaeda would be stronger than ever. Personally, I applaud George Bush for his resolve.

Best, Josh.

Invading Afghanistan dispersed the terror cells making them harder to track down. Same with Bin Laden. Al Qaeda wasn't just in Afghanistan and the ones who were just moved next door. Yes, we got some leaders, but they were harder to hit as moving targets. I too applaud George Bush's resolve; it's his execution I question, and now Obama's. Whatever we accomplish in either Afghanistan or Iraq will be undone soon after we are gone unless the people want real change. If it's not their idea our presence is looked at as an enemy invasion, and the terror cells simply gain a fresh crop of angry volunteers. Simply put, we showed up with a flashlight in a country that can't see in the light of day.

That's a great line, "we showed up with a flashlight in a country that can't see in the light of day". The pretense was claiming to show up with a flashlight. For the strangest reason people didn't notice that they named the invasion of Iraq "Enduring Freedom" and started claiming it was a liberation two weeks after they entered Iraq. That's when they really when on a propaganda offensive of claiming a moral stand. The big question no one has been asking is did the Iraqis and Afghans want to be "liberated"? Did they want the US to come in and fix their country? No, the reality was that opposing factions wanted to toppled the ruling body. The Shiites wanted to topple Saddam, the Kurds wanted to establish their own country, the Northern Alliance wanted to topple the Taliban. None of these factions wanted to better their country, it was simply a power struggle.

These conflicts have gone on for a decade because the Western countries claim to want to make life better for the people, but the people don't like their idea of better. Bottom line, the pretense of Iraq and Afghanistan is a big lie. Bush's "resolve" was hardly in the interest of a moral cause. Even after it was proven that Bush's claims of Iraq were wrong he kept going and created other pretense to continue and even execute Saddam. There are other interests involved and they have absolutely nothing to do with "enduring freedom" or "just cause".

Let's not forget the gigantic obvious, all of these massive security measures and yet there are no terrorists to be seen.

Americans have become gullible idiots.

Thomas

"We should have gone in, lay waste to the Taliban and gotten out. "

So basically, Thomas, you're saying you should have beaten the army sergeant to it and just gone in and killed all them Talibans because goodness knows they wear a 'T' on their forehead so stupid yanks like you can tell them from the good guys.

What can I expect from a bloodthirsty guy like you!?

Making them harder to track down? Pray how would you have tracked them down if you hadn't invaded Afghanistan? Al Qaeda hasn't just moved next door. They have been made practically impotent. Bin Laden was their poster boy.

As to whether or not everything will be undone once the US leaves, that's hard to say. It's just as possible the Taliban will have learned a hard lesson from this experience and won't make the same mistake bin Laden did, by assuming the US is too soft to fight back. You'd think after 10 years maybe that's sunk in.

But if terror rises again in Afghanistan, the US will also have learned some hard lessons, those being that selective strikes using drones and special forces can sap the strength of an enemy as surely as an all out invasion. Also, a perceived friend may not be as deadly as sleeping with a cobra, but close.

Best, Josh.

I've come to expect the worst perception from you, Amena. Is it really that hard to figure out that I meant military targets?

It's easy to sit back and criticize others, but I don't see you offering anything of substance to resolve the problem. Turn the tables, say American is the Islamic super power and the Taliban are Christians. You tell me what the appropriate reaction to the attack on 9/11 should have been? And please, don't insult my intelligence by coming up with some silly peaceful and tolerant approach.

Thomas

You know I just got back from a whirlwind tour of Philadelphia, Washington D.C. and New York. I saw the hall of independence where the declaration of independence was signed and I saw Benjamin Franklin's grave.

And funnily enough, Mel Gibson's The Patriot was playing one of the nights while we were staying in the hotel.

The American militia was the key to breaking British hold on the colonies and they didn't wear uniforms, and the British did much the same thing you guys are doing in Afghanistan, and there were rogue Brits who were massacring people just like your poor misunderstood staff-sergeant who was 'obviously under too much pressure'.

Boo hoo, cry me a river!

Just like you guys are suspicious of Muslim intentions, we're suspicious of American intentions.

And when something like this happens, you guys are quick to discount it as an aberration even though weeks ago they burned the Quran and weeks before that American soldiers shot videos of themselves pissing on Afghan corpses.

That's what makes me angry.

I was sitting on a bench outside Rockefeller centre, across from NBC news headquarters that had one of those news crawl thingies on the side of their buildings when I saw the news that this American had killed 16 Afghans, and you know what my first thought was?

*sigh*

It wasn't anger, it wasn't outrage, it was, I don't know, disappointment.

But here, I see your stupid responses to it and that's what makes me angry.

Go figure.

You spot check tidbits of American history and twist it to suit your point of view. It's obvious that you made very little effort to study the American Revolution. You are totally wrong when you say the American Militia was the key to breaking the British hold. You got that from the movie and the movie was grossly inaccurate. Did you know the Gibson character is actually loosely based on three different men? What actually broke the British hold was the French intervention with a massive fleet and troops. We wouldn't have won the Revolution on our own. The major successes in battles with the British was accomplished by the Continental Army, not the militia. They played an important role, but they were not the major factor you claim. Don't even try to argue American history with me, you are way out of your league.

As usual, you always miss the point that is made perfectly clear. I was condemning the government for unnecessarily prolonging the two conflicts.

You want to say "boo hoo"? That's what I say about getting angry over burning some books and pissing on a corpse. Neither of those two things in any way justify killing people. The enemy has done far worse, but you don't object to Muslims cutting off heads and mutilating bodies. If the Afghans killed Americans for what this soldier did, that I can understand. Revenge is part of the nature of war.

Interesting what makes you angry, it's only the things done to Muslims. Though you'd never admit it, you savor everything done to especially Americans, but all non Muslims. It's so obvious that your thinking is in reality very simple, Islam is pure good and everything else is pure evil. You pretend to be fair, tolerant and understanding, but it's all deception. You want Islam to rule the world... by any means necessary.

As to my stupid responses, funny how you are unable to get down to specific with a subject. When I just begin offering specifics you get lost because you know very little. Your main source of education is the Mullahs and Ayatollahs, who are as dumb as rocks and teach ridiculous stereotypes. So your claim of my responses being stupid is laughable.

I know you get angry... a lot, that's what Muslims do and is their favorite pastime.

Thomas

You have no idea what I expect and feel about the things many Muslims do.

Most of the time I find Muslim actions absolutely embarrassing.

When they're good, fine. But most of the time I think they're behaviour is ridiculous and indefensible. Afghans out of all Muslims are some of the most ignorant. I have very little expectations of them.

I am calling Americans on their behaviour because they are supposed to be civilised.

They're supposed to abide by a principles--and when they don't--yup, I call you on it.

I find Americans to be both good and bad.

Immoral and moral, at times.

But the way you guys are dismissing what this soldier did as just too much stress and pressure is absolutely disgusting.

You give no such leeway when a Muslim does something similar.

We're suppose to be civilized? What on earth does that mean? No society on earth is civilized. The only time a society is truly civil is when they have the luxury and remarkable conditions that allow it, even then it's temporary. You can have all the unrealistic expectations of Americans you want, but you'll never see them happen. So if you want to get all stressed out over it, hey, that's your problem.

In case you missed what's right in front of your nose, our founding principals are under constant and severe attack. There are a lot of people like Obama who work very hard to destroy our founding principals and the government (both Democrats and Republicans) and big business is among them. Sorry, we have no magic wand to wave to force the government to abide by our founding principals. It will take a Revolution to accomplish that. A Revolution that I believe is inevitable.

As to dismissing what that soldier did, not hardly. He cracked. The guy was so mentally ill that he couldn't remember his wife and two young children back home and what this would do to them. I'm sure not going to condemn a man who was pushed way too far. It has been found that his base in Washington state has had several people crack, one killing Americans right here at home, but I'll bet you didn't know that. The base is now under investigation to find why so many soldiers are cracking so violently from that base.

What leeway with Muslims are you talking about? Name one Muslim that killed a bunch of people that wasn't a part of a militant Muslim group. You are totally consumed and obsessed with the persecution of Muslims, but I suppose everyone needs a hobby.

Thomas

Who's to say who cracked?

I happen to think that most people have basic rules they live by like, duh, I won't kill children.

I sometimes wonder why Muslim terrorists do the things they do. I find people's motivations very interesting.

It's fascinating how some bullied kids go on a rampage and take out others before they turn the gun on themselves and why some bullied kids just take themselves out.

I don't always understand them, but I try to.

But I do agree with one thing you said, the stuff your founding fathers established is definitely under threat, first from Bush, and now from Obama.

He's horrible.

You can't understand everything and it is likely that we can't understand anything. Even if you did understand it wouldn't make one bit of difference. So, my philosophy has become simple; shit happens, deal with it.

At least we can agree about Bush and Obama, they're both dogs.

Thomas

Actually Thomas, I'm beginning to understand a LOT of things!

Slowly, slowly, I am understanding.

I can't count the number of times I was sure I gained an understanding and found out I was totally wrong. Playing on Socrates; true understanding is understanding you understand nothing. What people think is knowledge is merely filling in a billion holes with anything and everything so we don't have to admit to ourselves how stupid we are. We may be an intelligent life form, but we are still newborn babies trying to figure out all those blurs and sounds that mean nothing.

For the longest time I would get extremely angry at anyone who called me stupid because I was called that so much when I was a kid. All of a sudden it came to me that I shouldn't get angry because it's true, it's true for every single human being. Maybe in a few thousand years we'll begin to use our intelligence, but until then we'll take great pride in our achievements of stacking wooden alphabet blocks.

All I do is spit out whatever comes to mind based on what I feel at the time. I realize that the simplicity of words can never accurately relay my true thoughts and emotions and even if they could, no one would accurately interpret them. So I say what I please. I am left with at least one satisfaction that I have at least one piece of knowledge, the knowledge that I know nothing. Bless Socrates, that smart old fart.

Thomas