Mutations

In a previous conversation a bunch of us spoke about mutations. There were a lot of mixed views on this and I felt that the over all reception was rather inconclusive. To get a more straight forward feel of what the members think I am going to leave this poll up for a week. This way myself and my fellow admin can get a better understanding of members desires.

My general opinion is that they should be allowed, albeit maybe only one or two mutations. If people don't like them they don't have to play them! It shouldn't stop others from having fun with them =)

While I don't think we should deviate too far from the canon, I believe it would be reasonable for a few beneficial, adaptational, or coloring mutations to begin showing up after a generation or two.

I mean, think about it: Queens instinctively Rise and Clutch more often before and during a Pass, and then less towards the end of it and during an Interval, as the demand for bodies waxes and wanes with the threat of Thread. Kitty Ping (that is her name, right?) may have deliberately engineered the dragons, but she couldn't have thought of everything, and in the end they're still living creatures exposed to new environmental aspects all the time, as the world they live(d) in was thriving and, if on a geological scale, ever changing.

In this new environment, I could see a few more desert-oriented dragons cropping up. Things such as colors that either blend in more with the environment or the current colors more and more often appearing in paler and paler hues for the same reason (I could see whites here, they'd stick out true but their light hides, since I don't recall Ruth being a true albino, could potentially reflect more sun away and keep them from overheating);
perhaps smaller and/or thinner dragons, to better cope with the scarcer food supply (which would happen eventually anyway, since less food=less fuel for growth) and greater daytime temperature (though, granted, that high will utterly plummet at night... Though then again they're used to high altitudes and between...);
and maybe even a greater telepathic range and/or an increased number of dragons that will speak to more than just their Rider and other dragons, to accomodate the newly-vast, empty distances and the wide ranging they'll need to do to find food and water.

Another one I could see popping up would be more female dragons - like, say, one or even two additional Gold eggs per clutch - and/or either the Riders deliberately keeping the Greens from chewing firestone or them doing so instinctively on their own, to allow them to help increase numbers as was discussed before; or, even a few females cropping up among the otherwise "male" colors. The latter could potentially be explained as the eggs that usually don't hatch and considered "duds" are actually females of other colors, but, as has been mentioned as a limiting factor in what gender can Impress what color, never hatched because even if their potential Rider was present the person's mind was too conditioned to the "proper" gender for a given color.

... This turned out waaaaaay bigger than I'd originally intended, my apologies >.>

But anyway, these are simply ideas I'm throwing out as they come into my head. I have my heart set on none, except perhaps lighter colors and/or smaller sizes if I had to choose, and those more for the sake of logical minor adaptations. I would, however, suggest that if we do decide to offer new colors, that we wait at least a couple generations' worth of Clutchings for feasibility's sake. It wouldn't actually take all that long, at least IC-wise, as I imagine, they being back in the middle of a Pass now, the Queens would soon resume a more frequent schedule of Flights.

Anywho, that's my two (gazillion? X_x) cents. If you're curious, I voted "only one or two color mutations", as I think it shouldn't be a lot if we did, but really I'm cool with whatever xD

Okay, so it seems like we are basically split in half. My question for you all, is would you guys be willing to compromise?

What do you mean by compromise?

First of: The poll is a poor reflection of what people actually want. There's only ONE option for people who like canon only and FOUR for people who want mutations.
Anyone who was on the fence and thinks maybe one or two mutated dragons wouldn't be so bad are now lumped in with the "SURE LETS HAVE RAINBOW DRAGONS!"-group of pro-non-canon dragon.

Secondly: Seeing how two of the options are already a compromise, I'm pretty sure it's save to say the people who voted for those wouldn't mind compromising but the others might.

I would mind compromising a lot. And whatever happened to "We're just curious, we're not actually going to implement it"? Now we're already talking about compromising?

WOO. Okay, time for my two cents.

I'm one of those peeps who voted for the "NO MUTATIONS! Canon, FTW!", so let me explain my thought process behind that (wtf wording I swear I'm not writing an essay).

I'm totally down with non-canon sites, and I'm totally down with canon sites, I love them both and usually gaze from afar due to my horrible work schedule. When I do join a site it's usually because I've spent a good time reading everything/getting myself immersed and making the decision to splice away a bit of time for it based on what I've read. If I join a non-canon site, I expect lovely non-canons, and if I join a canon site, I expect the standard five. I could care less what/who rides the original five colors, sexuality and gender has never been important to me like it was to craycray Anne.

This site, when first opened, was advertised as having the canon colors, granted it's a completely different setting and really the people of Pern have changed, so the roles of the dragonriders can change easily too. We're not defined to the whole "ranking" aspect of the dragons becuause, hell, a bluerider here could have more persuasion and gut than a bronzerider (I'm also not the type to think that leaders only Impress metallics >_> if you can't tell, heh). The idea of playing out rank-fun is always exciting, especially if the plot ends up running with unexpected individuals taking charge.

As for the evolution thing, and nature demanding more, it would take a looooong time if we were to go by science. Galapagos didn't happen overnight, although the ideas seem super cool! But dealing with those problems can be handled with other ways! Like (Kestali I'm stealing your idea because it's brilliant) the whole dragons having colors that blend in, couldn't riders figure out to physically paint their dragons to do that? That would be so FUN so play that out, trying to keep the paint from getting mucked and all of the danger that comes with that. I can see a creature becoming colored like that due to being threatened in nature, but I don't see that here. Dragons have no predators (which is why it was no problem there's bright green/blue dragons hanging out in snowy High Reaches), and as much as the tribal humans here may seem like a threat, they're also the assumed group of people that would be plucked to be in future hatchings.

HOLY BALLS I'm rambling okay I swear I only have a few more points.

Okay, I found this somewhere (TAIDEM WEYR HELL YES I FOUND IT scroll down I swear it's worth it, THE SCIENCE.) and snagged it because I practically squealed in delight to see it had been attempted. In their version they have the odds all balanced out, AND include the idea of how some genetic mutation managed to worm it's way in there and WORK. It wasn't just magiccolors out of nowhere (which is also absolutely fine). If there are new colors I like the idea that you just take it in stride that it's ALWAYS been a part, or is part of a working mutation that has been there from the very beginning hidden away and taking so much time to surface in the world rather than just springing out of thin air. It would make it more AU, sure, but there's NOTHING wrong with that at all, I love AU stuff!

If the general idea is to have newer colors, like reds or yellows or oranges, I don't see why those colors just couldn't be used in the five we have. I've always liked my browns to be a bit reddy, or even purple-ish (even silver-ish!) blues are awesome! There's a lot of wiggle room because we're not just defined to solid uniform colors if we don't want to be!

And okay I'm seriously done I rambled way too much whatiswrongwithme. I JUST HAVE IDEAS and words are hard right now.

So basically do we want mutations just for the funs? Or are we looking for a reasoning behind it? I think that might be a question I'm trying to ask but can't find the right words. And I feel like I'm forgetting something. UGH BRAIN. If I think of it I'll bring it up.

I only asked if people were willing to compromise because both Calico and I wish to please both sides of our members. There ARE people who wish to see mutations and new color and obviously people who don’t. Just because I ask if people are willing to compromise doesn’t mean I will do something. This is something that needs a lot of thought and debate.

As if we did introduce mutations, it would be a slow process. As people have said, nothing happens over night.

As for new color ranks, it wouldn’t be so much about the colors as the new genders being introduced. Some people don’t like that there are only two female ranks. Not everyone wants to have their character ride a male dragon if you have a female character. I personally don’t like that if you have a woman rider, you are either at the top of the heap or the bottom. Or if you do have a female candidate, we could introduce females impressing male dragons but again, there will be those who prefer female. A color is a color but in all honesty, it can be getting boring to get the same color. Let’s face it, no matter what, a woman greenrider will never rise high up even if weyr politics change. In Pern society, women are meant to have babies and take care of the home. During Anne’s time when she first started these books, this was the reality but nowa days, not so much.

As for your idea about paint Pulp, while I do enjoy it...it is unfortunately very much impractical. If Wasted Time dragons were measured in feet, the yes we could do it. Since we use Meters, it makes it nearly impossible. Oiling a dragon would take much effort so why would the riders paint their dragons when that energy could be used for something more practical?

I know we can’t please everyone but I would love to try and make it able that we can give somewhat to both parties and make everyone happy.

I do have a question though to who enjoy canon play, What exactly about canon that you like and what is it about non-canon that upsets you?

Allow me to call bullshit. The social structures have been completely changed and that's what (I think) Pulp was getting at that anything is possible now re: ranks.

By your reasoning, women nowadays still wouldn't be allowed to vote because once upon a time they didn't have the same rights as men. And then a movement started and LO AND BEHOLD NOW THEY CAN.
Pern is a society similar to ours, it's a living breathing thing and things change. Seeing how the whole world Anne created is pretty much gone, a green rider (male OR female) could well step up and rock the shit out of the mob of dragonriders if she had such ambitions.


P.S. Since I posted a bit hastily: Don't get me wrong, you're welcome to consider implementing new colours and mutation, but just... say so. Don't tell me it's not going to happen one moment but continue with exploring the possibility of doing so the next. If you weren't going to (like Cali and you told me: it was all about curiosity about the member's base opinions not about making actual changes) we wouldn't be needing a debate at all.

As for pleasing both sides of the member base, it's probably not going to happen since I've already formed a party of one in this thread (and on AIM to you guys personally prior to even voting here) who doesn't want to.

And after how many hundreds of years did it take for that to happen Essar? Looking back on all of history, it took a long, long time for that change to happen. I'm not saying that it isn't impossible in the future for a woman greenrider tor rise up and take control. But even look at the tribes, they are predominantly male ruled, not female. In a world where men have ruled, they arn't going to suddenly changes their views over night because a female women want more rights than men. In fact, they'd probably laugh.

Let's also not forget the fact that the in the Weyr itself, there isn't that many female riders to begin with.

I think maybe people would be more apt to compromise if everyone knew what we were compromising about? Throw out some ideas! Making ideas about the compromise (like the punnet table equations I linked to) or perhaps not new colors overall but markings? Or the paint theory? I'm not stamping my foot down and saying NOMUTATIONS AT ALL. I'm just trying to explain my point of view coming as someone who joined the site under the idea it was going to stick to the canon colors.

I think there's a misunderstanding here. This isn't Anne's canon here on Wasted Time, it's (initially) Khay's, and whatever we shape it to be. Golds don't HAVE to be the "top" of the heap and greens DON'T have to be at the "bottom" of the heap. A dragon is a dragon, maybe the gold might SEEM like the top to a character's mindset because it's the babymaker, but ideally aren't all dragons supposed to be unique? Wasn't the idea here for a person to be able to design specifically what they'd like to see if they so wished? You could have the most unintelligent and authority-void gold here, and you could have a serious-biznuz green too! We aren't bound by Anne's idea of Pern Society here, hell, there aren't Holds anymore. Tribal people may decide somewhere that browns are the most important because they're the middle man, or greens are because they're so numerous, and the ones with the lower numbers while, despite being physically larger, are seen as less of a threat because they're few, and notably golds because they're just "brooding clutchmothers" rather than the fighters.

But even THEN we can be all HELL NO, GOLDS GONNA FIGHT. I don't think that in THIS (as in this site) the standard is for the women to be at home with babies. We have hunter women who can fight on their own and matriarcal tribes (assumingly) who are run by WOMEN. I don't think it has it anywhere on this site where we're imposing Anne's standards here, so I don't know how that's a factor. Our characters can grow into whatever we want them to be, that's the fun of pretendyfuntiems.

And I think I'm going to have to disagree on the mention of the woman greenrider not being able to do anything. In our plotline they could do anything, and I think we shouldn't just write off greens as fodder or just lowly bulks of numbers.


As for me liking canon-play, I've stated I like BOTH canon and non-canon play. When it comes to canon I think it's challenging to deal with the strict rules of canon and defying them by making excellent characters in that world. This is not the most canon site, but because of the colors alone it seems to categorize to canon. Nothing upsets me about non-canon, I just usually make a decision to join a site based on the information they give beforehand, and if this site decides to be non-canon, then okay! But there is a number of people who decided non-canon and we should know what they do/do-not like, but as you said this does need lots of thought and debate.

AND AS A NOTE, totally just debating here. No intention of being internet-coolguy-mean. Just discussing points! X3'


AND NOTEDIT BUT EDIT BECAUSE OF POSTING;;
We're in a unique setting where characters CAN change the rules of a Weyr right now, because they're essentially the only one. Khay even stated the tribes CAN be ruled by women, and who knows how many that aren't played that are run by them?


A for-real edit:
shit-balls. again. the post size, APOLOGIES. MY RAMBLING. *cries*

You LITERALLY said it would never happen.

The whole point of having a sand-boxy game like WT was to let members pursue these kinds of plot, to level the playing field and to party without Anne's crazy take on canon.

Things wouldn't have to happen instantly or be successful right away, but it would be a possibility to pick it up and run with it as a plot.

If I did, I'm sorry because I honestly don't know if we will go through with mutations or not simply because if we do, it is what members want. What we can do though however is to try and reach a compromise to try and please both parties.

I'm pretty sure we're talking about two different things now.

My last post was re: women in charge and overthrowing the ranks. You literally said (and I qouted that bit to reply to it specifically) that a woman on a green would never rise to power.

My post before that pretty much already concluded the whole mutation thing in my P.S., the way I see it now anyway.

Also, pretty sure Pulp asked some questions that only admisn can answer. You mention compromise but offer none. Perhaps people would be willing to compromise if there was anything concrete proposed? (paraphrased from Pulp, copyright to her! <3)

Well, for one of the mutations we were thing about was in fact about fire-breathing. It was stated in the ninth pass that firestone was getting more difficult to find and in their current predicament, getting firestone would even be more hard as they don't have any miners or hardly any miners.

So we came up with the idea that there could be a mineral that is very much like platinum. The dragons could start to unconsciously eating the mineral which in turn starts to change the dragons. One of the outcomes we pictured would that the firestone stomach the dragons have would start to change to become bladders for gases, more correctly, methane and hydrogen. Combined with oxygen and the mineral as a catalyst, dragons would be able to more effectively produce fire than having to rely on the firestone.

Hi, I'm one of those people who voted 'LOL DON'T CARE, DRAGONS ARE DRAGONS'.

The way I see it, we don't have any real reason to have mutations. If we do have mutations, I want them to be something special, something really interesting. Like... do we need another clutcher that Impresses only to women? No, of course not. We already have exactly that in Gold dragons.

We don't need any other infertile female dragons. We already have Greens. Literally the only difference would be in hide color and that gets silly. It becomes a fight over mere color and we don't need that here.

And, let's face it: it would gear away from what attracted people to this site in the first place. Some people joined this site because it only has the five canon colors. Let's try to stay true to that.

Don't get me wrong; I LOVE the idea of having men on clutchers and all but... yeah... we have gold whers for that sort of thing.

And re: women in power, why CAN'T a woman Impress a color other than Green or Gold? If we are going to change canon, let's change that. Screw gender-based Impressions like that.

Why can't we match... say... a Brown and a woman? Let's make THAT the mutation instead of focusing on hide color. Let's say that anyone can Impress any color, regardless of sexuality/sex/gender.

Can we just say that dragons Impress solely based on personality?

We did intending to have women impress other colors in the future.

Another mutation we were considering would go along with the mineral mutation and that would be the white dragon. They wouldn't be your typical whites as they wouldn't be true whites as true white is lethal, they are just light colored. They would have genders but wouldn't rise but also, they would come in any size, from green sized whites to gold size whites. They would have a keener sense of smell, being perfect to locate the mineral.

As Khay intended it.

EDIT! ---- Ah this bit is now sorta half-way true because Desi posted while I was posting, so, grain of salt here ploz ---- !TIDE


As for your idea Desi, assuming firestone would actually be hard to obtain (which I find hard to believe since the dragons were the main consumers of it and they have been gone for a long time so natural composits would replenish and according to the DLG: "the rock itself is easily obtainable on the surface of volcanic terrain" somining it wouldn't be all that hard for a handful of dragons) I don't see why you would go through the painstaking effort of physiologically changing dragons with a mineral (I think the word you might want is compound) akin to platinum (which is a metal and particlarly non-reactive at that which is why it's a precious metal) when you can just say "better flaming dragons with another type of phosphorous rock"

It's the same results with less of the wacky science that... only with completely suspending believe would work.

Basically, nice thought process, but it seems like scrambling for a compromise in a way that's totally unnecessary and misses all the basic points. People want non-canon because it's something different, as you said it would get "boring" with just the same colours. Having a dragon that flames in another physiological way (that the people are probably not going to find out about because they haven't the means to find out anymore) isn't going to change that.

I can't believe I'm now actually advocating for the non-canon fans. But there you have it. XP

Okay, so I got this thread directed to my attention, and when you guys took on the Weyr, like I said before, I figured that you guys would know what you were jumping in to, that you'd look at the setting, and try to realize the potential that had on their own. AND I KNOW THIS SOUNDS PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE. IT ISN’T. Just realize that I’m NOT saying ANY of this in a negative tone. But rather, I’m flailing and just trying to get things seen through correctly.

Let me say this first of all: If you want new colours, and new mutations, I handed the site over... So. Blargh. I can't put my foot down on NO to that anymore as I did when I was running it. However, I had hoped that it would have been dealt with.

You guys have to understand that tribes can have a patriarch or a matriarch. I've said about 15 times. I've explained that I was letting the PLAYERS choose how they wanted their tribes run. I wasn't giving any more information because if everyone wanted FEMALE LEADERS! I was going to say: "MORE POWER TO YOU!" and if everyone wanted MALE LEADERS! I would also say: "MORE POWER TO YOU!" Because hey! That's what the players want, and this world is open to it, and there are no longer the divisions between men and women that is truly ruling the tribes. Some people could have said: "MALE AND FEMALE EQUALITY!" and I would have agreed to it! If the strongest female, and the strongest male led the tribe, sure! If the oldest female, and the oldest male led the tribe, SURE. Make your own traditions, everything was possible. The members were going to create the world and do it in ways that THEY envisioned. I was here to be a guiding arm (For the most part! Sorry if I came off as stubborn on some points!) and to keep working with people.

Now, I am greatly attached to this place, and I didn't have inspiration to write until yesterday. So now, I'm ready to write again. But I gave this place away, and I'm not going to take this adminship from you guys. However, when you wanted to know what the hell I had written for the setting, and my ideas for how the Weyr was going to go... This wasn't it. At all. But, like I recommended, do your own twist! I just... Didn't expect to have people try to take it too far out of what it already was right away, because MEMBERS who JOINED did so because of how it was ADVERTISED and PRE-PORTRAYED. (Don't mind the caps. Not yelling. Sick of using BBC).

The setting... OMG! WHERE THE HELL AM I! OH SHIT! THIS IS PERN! Was made exactly for the reasons that I wanted a full Weyr overhaul. Queens do not control other dragons. If a Queenrider gets too hungry, the rest of the Weyr can protest... And you know what? With a world that you don't know just outside your doorstep, being shoved on your own ISN'T going to be a pleasant experience.

The Weyr, right now, is in SHAMBLES because of what the other riders are going to assume is the (guess!) Leadership of the Queens. Wouldn't you think that if some people led you to the place where you've experienced the most horror, that isn't even recognizable, that you'd want to follow their type so willingly? Greenriders are bloody AMAZING in this setting. They're faster. They're smaller. They can dart in, and dart back out. ALSO. Greenriders are the most valued dragon in any Weyr! Who the hell do you think protects the larger, slower dragons from threadfall? Definitely not the Queens! The greens have that manoeuvrability, and no other dragon can match them. The Blues are a close second though. The browns, significantly large are about as manoeuvrable as the bronzes. They do their share, and they're the perfect balance. They can protect their bloody selves, but they still need that push every now and again. Greens don't last a full threadfall in the books (I don't even know why!) but the reason why I think it is, is because they're constantly on the damn move. They have to kill the clumps, fly higher than the slower dragons, because they can move fast enough to GTFO if the time calls for it. Then they can get right back in before a bronze could even damn turn away from a falling clump of thread. When I look at that, I think: That dragon is KICK ASS. Golds? They aren’t even HALF as amazing. They’re BIG, which, hey! I LOVE. But the Greens have all the manpower. And besides, the little ones generally (and I’m saying GENERALLY) stick together. 50% of the Weyr versus 1% of the Weyr… Who’s going to win this fight? If the lower ranks wanted to revolt, they damn well could. They have 73% of the Weyr’s population on their side. Ouch!

I was planning on having dragons impress to genders that they don’t normally impress to. THINK about it. The Weyrs do not HAVE the SHEER number of candidates anymore. The dragons are going to choose the people amongst them, and perhaps not all of them are going to survive. But it has so much potential. SO MUCH POTENTIAL. Male and female? Who cares! You still have that kick ass green!

However, for someone who says that colour doesn’t matter, how does getting the same general ‘rank’ of colour count as boring? You can have blue-ish greens! You can have yellow greens! Heck, you could have white greens and black greens, and greens with purple feet! The spectrum is unlimited! The only thing that a green really limits you to is SIZE. Because you can have asexual greens. Bossy greens. Greens who chat all day. Greens who sit on their ass all day. Greens who dance around and try to eat everyone… Okay, the latter is probably not possible, dragons can’t hurt humans… YET. >.> DUM DUM DUM DUM…. ANYWAY, I digress.

Dragons have a whole possibility. Why do we need new colours when you have all this range to explore? Mutations are great! SURE! If people know what they are GETTING IN TO upon joining. I told people one thing. People understood one thing. And now those things are changing. That makes things complicated to the members who joined.

And I agree! People LOVE mutations (some people!) and people Love different colours and such. But some people don’t. However, there are other Weyrs with different colours and such. People joined this site AS IT WAS.

So, perhaps as a cry out from an ex-admin who still loves this site, and who loves all the potential that it can have… Try to go with the potential at hand.

This site was never meant to be lead by an admin hand, but to have an admin whisper words of encouragement to its members, and show them just how glorious they are, and how great they can stretch their potential.

Of course it needs admin help, and admin concepts… But it needs member flourish as well! The setting has so many possibilities. The tribes have possibilities, the sheer CONFLICT.

I’ve seen Weyrs run like the way this one seems to be going… And really, these Weyrs don’t last long, unless you want to go back through the same routine of clutch-gather-clutch-clutch. That doesn’t last… I don’t want to see this site die due to people not seeing its potential.

Hell, I’d do ANYTHING to make this site live. ANYTHING. I don’t want to part with this site, but I’m not going to one up you guys by coming back. That’d just be mean to you guys.

But, in my honest opinion, you guys need to decide what you guys want to do! What are your plans for the site? How are you going to lead it? You asked people to come in, and join, and you didn’t tell anyone what you were going to do. Think about what you guys want. COMMUNICATE. Then come back, and ask people opinions. If you don’t, this site isn’t going to last another few weeks.

Are you ready for this? Are you ready to take on a site as it is? If not, why not make your own? (I could totally help if you want!) The only reason why there is so much flail in this post is because I CARE. I care deeply about this concept. It’s my baby. I still love it, but at the point in my life where I was, I didn’t have inspiration for it. Now, things came back, and I’m not ready to see this go down in flames. *hugs Desi and Calico*

But, if there’s one thing that I can recommend, from one admin to two new ones, don’t ask members something that you are never planning on implementing. If you want to please members, you’ll have to please everyone, and trust me when I say that that is going to ruin you. Being an admin is a tougher job when you have members from both spectrums of views than people give them granted for. It’s a job without many thanks. You have to be passionate about it.

I didn’t want to come back. Because hey! It’s always odd coming back to a site that you can’t just take control over. So, I won’t unless that’s what you guys want.

xD This game wasn’t meant to be your regular Weyr! I’m a fantasy player at heart. It was here for the conflict and the plots. The rebellions, and what COULD be. Don’t try to stick with what IS. And trust me… Dragon colours, being apex predators, isn’t what this site CAN be. There are bigger goals out there. Find them!

Bloody hell people. This is RP. FOR FUN! Why in gods name does it matter if people want mutations or not? What the HELL is wrong with coexisting with each other? To each their own? If you don't want a non-canon then don't make one, and if Impressing, ask for a canon color! If you want non-canons then cool! Dear god. I RP to relax, not to deal with all this bullshit drama and long essays on something that just poisons any desire I have to rp in a setting I once loved. I'm gone. Goodbye and good luck.