LGBT Discussion, For queer discussions

This is a topic for discussing LGBT related topics.

First on the docket;

StyxD mentioned over in the fundie topic that talking to genderqueer people is difficult.
To help solve this issue I will describe my gender identity, questions will be asked, holes may be poked, and I will find a way to describe it accurately, and concisely. We will all learn in the process.

I was born male, but around middle school felt like my body was incorrect. from my research middle school is around the time many trans people begin feeling this way.

I could be labeled a transwoman, but i never really think of myself as such.

I feel female, I identify as such, but it also isn't quite black and white.
I feel 60% female 40% male, maybe 65/35.

The way I often put is that I feel like a tomboy.
A tomboy in a boys body
keep in mind tomboys still identify as female. a lot of confusion comes from that.

that's a start i guess.

I'm not surprised it isn't a 100% thing. Most things rarely are.

But I've been confused by the idea of being biologically, say, male, being transgender and being lesbian. Or the other way around. I know someone who is the first, and I've heard of someone who is bio female, trans male, and gay. So I know the concept exists, but I do find it a tad bit confusing.

Also, to be clear about the last discussion. "Waaaaah! Lesbians won't sleep with me because I still have a penis!" Probably can't be called bigotry. Attraction, or non-attraction, also has a physical aspect.

Trivia: British Columbia healthcare covers transgender surgeries, but Alberta (next door) doesn't.

Also, Tiberius, this is pretty darn brave of you. You're basically putting yourself on the dissection table here. Metaphorically anyway.

Now, to get started, you say that you started feeling out of place in your body round about middle school. Theoretically, a bit past puberty or during it. Yet you are also asexual, which perhaps clouds the issue a little bit. What relationship, if any, do you think exists between your asexuality and your being transgender? (Not the most smooth sentence, but I couldn't end it with transgenderness transgeneredality?).

I have to say if I was transgender I would want to keep it to myself.
Transgender seems to be a group that its okay to have a go at.
Even otherwise open minded and reasonable people seem to think transgender people are disgusting and deserving of ridicule and contempt.

People in this country get upset at the idea of gender reassignment surgery being paid for by the NHS.
There is some sense that its just sick perverts forfilling some kind of unspeakable deviency, rather than an actual condition.

I would tend to believe that anyone who has a problem that they feel can only be solved by having their genitals removed,has a pretty serious problem and treating a problem that serious in some way is a reasonable useof resources.

In the same way that homophobes are threatened by gays that they feel will rape them, there is a wierd fear of transexuals as if they spend their time trying to trick people, like that is their only purpose.


I am surprised by the idea of someone not knowing how to talk to gays.
All the ones I know I talk to using english. Some may speak other languages though so its not fool proof.

I agree. I have said that before too. That's why it is best to avoid absolutes in a discussion, debate, or argument.

a lesbian transwoman is a male who is attracted to women, but in a "female" way. They want to have sex with women, but they want to have it as a women. At least that's how I see it.
It's confusing.
Its really just about how you categorize people. is a transwoman who likes men gay, or heterosexual? do you count identity, or biology for orientation?
does it matter? Well, yeas and no. Labels are just labels, but they also facilitate discussion. And it is important to many people and to certain issues.
Should transwomen who are into women be considered lesbians? Should they be included in lesbian activism?
I got a sense that this is mainly an issue in the lesbian community because of how it mixes with feminism. They don't want men in their group, no matter how they identify.
I doubt you would find the gay community having as much anger when dealing with whether transmen should be included.

Thank you. I just wish I could do this sort of thing as easily offline.

not sure how to end that sentence smoothly either. hmm...

back to the topic.
I'm not sure if there is a relationship.
if anything its made it easier. If I'm not having sex then its not as important being the right sex.
There was also that idea that my asexuality led to my transgenderness (you're right that does sound off). That I identify as female because females are culturally depicted as more asexual then men. I don't think that's true, but it's not too implausible.
Of course there is another idea that I'm asexual because I'm transgender. I don't think that's true either.

In the end I think being asexual just makes things easier.

surgery. I've thought about it, but I'm not sure its a big enough problem for me to resort to it.
I have often wished "it" was gone though.

Harkovast seems to have a lot of readers that are gay, bisexual, transgender etc
This was before I overtly mentioned a gay character.
That's not a complaint, just an observation. Is there something in it that strikes a chord with LGBT people or is this just random chance?
I do know that furries are far more likely to be gay on average than a none furry person, so maybe that is where the connection exists.

There are only two types of people that matter.
Those who read harkovast.
And Wankers.

I try to follow a belief that everyone has the right to choose what they think is right for themselves. I'll admit I used to think stuff like this was weird, but then again I never grew up with it so that is why. People don't like things they aren't used to, hell I hated DVD's when compared to VHS for a couple of years.

I admit I would feel uncomfortable when talking with a homosexual or trans person in person. I have similar fears when talking to a person I don't know. I had similar fears when talking to a person of a different ethnicity.

I'm not perfect. I try to get on everyones good side and worry myself constantly about how I look to others.

I'm selfish and insecure. But I know that I am an individual and I feel that people know half the truth.

They know that they are an individual. but they forget that the people they are demonizing are made up of a bunch of individuals.

I don't know of any kind of person who would just get a sex change for a joke or to live out some weird idea for the hell of it. A person that goes through this thinks about it constantly, they will second guess themselves but they are trying to find out what and who they are (I can't speak from experience).

People just want to turn off the idea of individuality when they throw insults because they don't want to feel guilty.

Everyone follows a path. I try to not fully follow the one that is filled with hate.

I'm sorry if any of this sounded insulting.

yeah, people seem more uncomfortable with transgender people then others.
If working women bend gender ideas
If Gay and lesbian twist gender ideas
Then Transgender utterly breaks gender ideas

"Women don't work, they stay at home!"
"Men sleep with women, not other men!"
"You have a penis! That means you're male! The fuck is wrong with you?!"

To be fair, I sometimes have trouble with being politically correct about the transgender thing. What I mean is that I tend to call people who are biologically men/women him/her regardless of how they identify. I have to think about remembering to say whichever is actually appropriate.

Its a "if it looks like a duck, talks like a duck, acts like a duck... it's a freaken duck!" thing. Except it isn't a duck. So a person looks like a male, sounds like a male, and acts like a human (because, in all honesty, I don't see women and men acting all that differently most of the time), then I think "male". It is like getting past the appearance and listening to what someone says they are instead of what they appear to be.

It takes some thinking/time to realize that gender and being transgender is different then, say, colour: "you are green today" "No, I'm pink." "No, you are pretty obviously green." "No, I'm pink!"

Perhaps that is one of the reasons that it confuses people more so than being Gay/Lesbian. Most people have accepted that someone who looks/is female can be lesbian, same for men, but the idea of transgender goes directly against what they see. We trust our eyes, and first impressions are ever so important, so something that apparently contradicts that seems strange. And as we know, we don't tend to react well to strange.

Then again, sometimes confusion is all it is. When I was younger I knew someone who was transgender (I think, memory is hazy, might just have been a crossdresser, it isn't necessarily the same thing). When I saw who I thought was a him, dressed as a woman, I didn't actually recognize her/him. I must have seemed terribly rude staring at the person with a sense of "I know who this is... don't I? Where have I seen them before?" But that was all I was thinking.

I've always referred to Tinerius as a he, I'll keep doing that unless he tells me he would prefer I change.

I think its reasonable for people to request to be referred to by a different gender term if that makes them feel better.
However, it would be unreasonable for them to get offended or act indignant at someone using the wrong one because they don't know or by mistake.
It obviously does cause confusion, I dont suppose there is much we can do about that.

I've had a couple of people get bent out of shape because I referred to them by the wrong gender, having never met them before.

Some people just look for a reason to be offended, even if it requires them being unreasonable and rube to someone else.

A person once told me "That's why I prefer to be genderless on the internet"

Probably one of the best lines I have heard.

not sure who Tinerius is.

As for me, Tiberius, pronouns aren't a big issue, neither are names really.
Being referred to as "she" could be nice, but I don't care strongly either way.
Helen became my sort of female name (that phrase sounds awkward). I just like the name.
But as I said, names aren't a big issue.

I'm still waiting for StyxD to swoop in and ask questions, and to poke holes as he said he does.

I gave being genderless on the Internet a shot, meh, didn't work. And frankly, I don't care much now. Still, with a name like "Canuovea" it could really be anything. And people tend to associate "a" endings with female names.

Tiberius, I notice how relaxed about this kind of thing you are. The proper pronoun isn't a huge concern and you aren't really fixated on this. You seem to take a more "well, this is the case, so be it" approach. Not all do take this approach, some are very much pushy regarding their gender.

I'm wondering if this is because some people come under a lot of fire for how they identify? And being firm, strong and sometimes demanding, about their position is their way of coping? A kind of rebellion against outside forces that attempt to control them and force them into a position they are not made to take? A way to reinforce their own will? What?

Interesting things to consider.

Me, ask questions? Do I want to? I'm not sure.

In reverse order by relevance:

How many do you know of? I think two (Renard and Tiberius) revealed themselves on the forums, which is not that lot. Unless other readers send you private confessions over mail ;). Or I missed someone, which is likely since I don't read a sizable part of the forum.

And your overtly gay character sucked. Ki, on the other hand...

If it makes you feel better: I wasn't sure if you're male or female on the old forums. :P

Being genderless on the Internet doesn't work, because in this day and age people will still assume you're male unless you state otherwise. Though most of the time it simply won't come up, so it's hard to say if it's working or not. In my experience.

It's interesting. Long time ago (before the Internet and before I was even interested in such topics) I've read that general society was more accepting of transgendered people than of homosexuals, because the common concept that they're "woman trapped in a man's body" (or vice versa) made it look like it's a sort of sickness that can be cured with reassignment surgery, not a deviation. Still rooted firmly in the gender binary people are familiar with.

Though I had now way of checking it then, and I don't see it nowadays. Either everyone radicalized, or it was never really truth.

As for "open minded" people showing contempt to transsexuals, there are two issues I've heard about.

1. Feminists and privilege. I admit, I didn't really dig deep into this issue, but from what I remember: Transwomen become women on a whim, but they don't have to live their whole lives in that unprivileged state. They basically cherry pick what they see good in being a woman, while needing not to endure anything bad. And they dare to insist they're women, always had been, but never paid the price.
...Yeah, if this sounds wonky, it's because I can't convey this properly.
Also, some feminists seems disgusted by transwomen (who get reassignment surgery) treating being a woman as a matter of having a "hole". I'm sure it made it into Deve's blog, where she derided that idea. I don't remember it clearly now.

2. Gender binary: the reinforcement of. This I get much better than the former.
Tiberius, you've said that transgender people shatter gender ideas. But they don't. I'll paraphrase a post I've once read somewhere (can't remember where): There you are, a feminist merrily fighting gender stereotypes and forcing gender roles on people, saying that men and women shouldn't be limited by them. In comes a transwoman/transman and says "Hello, I'm a woman/man, and to show you all that I am, I'm going to act in the most stereotypical feminine/masculine way I can. It's the most basic and important part of my identity."
...So yeah. This is a gross simplification, but the mechanism is there.

Yeah, you really are awfully relaxed about that, Tib. I've seen transgendered people that would say you're fake because of it. Literally, one comment on their site said about some other perosn "She doesn't care about being referred to with wrong pronouns, so obviously she's not genderqueer, she's cis and just confused about terms" (OBTW, if someone was confused what cis means - it basically simply means "not transgendered").

It's on this maligned site (I won't link it and I don't recommend it) I've last tried to obtain a coherent definition of gender identity, it was a failure, but at least they tried. They claimed... but before I start refuting their ramblings retroactively, perhaps it's better to just forget it and do over.

So Tiberius. You have pretty... exact percentage on your gender identity. But what does that even mean?

What is female gender? What is male gender?

I ask that, because I don't know. I feel no identity with either concept. I've never seen gender as anything but limitation. But transgender people, much more than cis people, embrace it as one of their most basic characteristics. It's jarring.
I equate those concepts with either physical traits or social roles (if there are any psychical differences between men and women - I count them as physical traits, brain construction and such).
Transgender people I've seen usually said that there's more. That deep down you know your gender, and stereotypically masculine or feminine behavior is just a means of expression.
But it's meaningless. There are no definitions of male/female beside the two I mentioned. Without either, the concept you're supposed to identify with is null.