Is Harkovast too nice?, This is me thinking out loud...

[Harkovast]

People in Harkovast are really pretty nice to each other when you think about it.
Yes, by our modern enlightened standards we might consider many of them racist, xenophobic or violent.
But that is not a fair comparison.
To judge the roughly medievalish societies of Harkovast against a modern standard is giving us a leg up on them.
Comparing their societies to equivalent real world ones...they really are a lot nicer than us.

On matters of sexism, a lot of them are light years ahead of where we were until literally about 30 years ago...that is my life time!
For almost all of human history women had no rights at all. The idea that they were actually valid people in themselves is an incredibly resent invention.

The same can be said of their racism.
Admittedly they have a leg up on us by all speaking the same language, but even so, overall they are massively less racist than we were at the time (and in many cases are today.)
A lot of them are quite comfortable with other nations and don't see each others religions as a threat or try to change or disprove each other belief systems.
If you look back to the attitudes people held about foreigners or other human races in the past, there really is no comparison.
We've always hated and exterminated each other with gusto.
Every time a stronger human culture encountered a weaker one they pretty much went all out to kill them off. That's just how people always used to operate.
The native cultures of south and north america and their fate are a pretty clear example of how humans respond when they meet new peoples.

I don't think I even need to get started on homosexuality. Even today, in western civilised nations it is often dangerous for someone to admit to being a homosexual. Hate crimes and murders of gays happen all the time.
And this is as good as things have EVER been for gays!
For 100% of the human history that we know of things have been worse!
In Harkovast some societies are homophobic, and they behave as badly as humans used to is this regard...but many of them don't! Even the Darsai (who don't approve of being gay) are not actively killing them!

So I have to wonder...did I go a bit soft with Harkovast?
While sometimes they might seem racist or crude in their attitudes...compared to our own societies they are paragons of enlightenment.
Perhaps a world as dark as our own used to be would just be too unpleasant for me to want to write about.
Is life in Harkovast just too light and fluffy and enlightened compared to the historical nations that inspire it?


Just something to think about....

[Canuovea]

Nah.

You do it as you want.

First of all, some societies in Harkovast aren't all that better than us.

Second, you generalize human society a lot. Not all are that bad.

Thirdly, there are important differences. Women might get more respect when they can crush someone's eye by punching them in the face.

[Harkovast]

In terms of sexism, homophobia, violence etc pretty much all human historical cultures are fairly equal.

I'm not really criticising it...just thinking out loud.

[Tiberius]

another way of looking at it is this;

Would you want to read a comic that features characters that by our standards are complete and utter twats? there is something to be said for historical accuracy, and it is "there is a time and place for it."

The idea of "well that's how they acted back then, so it's OK." is countered by "I don't live back then, so to me their just ignorant"

[Canuovea]

Basically, I think you make it possible, Hark... their prejudice exists, but manifests differently due to the different setting.

Look how some cultures react to half-castes, for instance (Junlocks like to hang them, it seems).

Some have homophobia, some are sexist... some are this, some are that... also our standards vary, and you show plenty of diversity that covers a lot of different cultural settings.

Plus the division of different "races" into groups that generally do not look similar is... well... helpful in a way. Not just to the reader, but also in terms of cultural development and interaction.

Tiberius also has a good point...

But Hark... all human historical cultures? Do you know what the ancient Greek take on homosexuals was? Similar to the Ivos, actually... Plato has an interesting take on it, apparently. Something about a person's soul being separated into two at birth, sometimes both halfs are male, sometimes female, and sometimes one of each. The person then spends time looking for their "other half" which can be male or female regardless of their own gender. Yes, he seemed to think that homosexuality was not a choice...

Also, several first nations groups were basically led by the women, but the Europeans didn't really notice. Your portrayal of Ano-Chee culture up to this point in the comic seems fairly... close to historical societies... though, without the magic and all that.

Violence? There tends to have been conflict in a lot of places, true, but I don't see how the Harkovast peoples are any different in that regard.

[Renard]

Our world is a depressing, cruel, and very mean place. Mass graves, hate crimes abound, the US is soon to be run by Christian fascists, the Syrians are murdering their own and being protected while they do it.

This is the sort of angry paranoia that my brain runs on.


You can take a pessimistic approach in fiction, or you can take a more optimistic approach.

A couple of years ago I read a novel; almost every person the protagonist met was petty, mean, backstabbing, murderous, evil, brutal, criminal, or a combination of several of those. In the end the protagonist and his allies end up accidentally (at least on the part of the protagonist) killing off some people who could help them out of a jam and completely screw themselves over. In the end the hero essentially failed, and he knew it.


Look, just keep it the way it is. Why would I root for the heroes if they're trying to save a world full of people who do their best to harm each other over petty squabbles and differences?

[Frostwolf18]

i agree in the first part with renard, the world is pessimistic and people look at comics like this to get away from it

and other than that all i can really say is, your showing us simple characters, the only society you have shown with more than three people are the lizard people (god i am bad at remembering names) and the Ano-chee, and the lizards seem nice, fox people need to see a bit more.

honestly i don't think that all the characters are the fullest embodiments of their race, if that was the case than all darsai would be annoying and senile. the best thing is that you haven't brought us to a setting of civilization with most of the races, so it is a bit too early to ask this question to yourself in my opinion, the only people that know more about the comic are the people that read the forums, and sadly i don't see many, could be wrong.

i still think your early in the story, so if you really want to, you can go pessimistic on us, and make societies hate each other, or bring up separate factions of societies that want to take over with a form of religion or something

but even then, not every character you make has to be an embodiment of their races culture, look a shogun, you could have a junlock who has no problem with half castes and homosexuality, you could make a darsai that hates chivalry, hell you could make a golta that isn't xenophobic (so far goltas are the meanest)

so as a creator, go nuts

[StyxD]

I basically agree with what Renard and Tiberius said. Making everyone a bigoted asshole for the sake of realism would make the story unrelatable, and casting a set of goody (and therefore sympathetic) protagonist against a backdrop of bigoted assholes would make it unrealistic.

I mean, a fantasy setting needs not to portray the attitudes from the corresponding era of human history (and what would that era even be for Harkovast? You have Roman Empire alongside 17th century United States). What you did is basically how nearly every modern fantasy story handled things.

Although if you really feel you should spice things up, consider adding the following scene:

After their victory over the Heretic, Sir Muir precedes to insult and beat Chen-Chen, since a battlefield is no place for a woman, and especially not a pagan foreign scum that tarnishes his honor by being on the same side. Then Shogun guts Sir Muir for being a ignorant foreign scum that dared to speak to a Tsung-Dao unasked. Then he cuts off Chen-Chen's arms, since showing them uncovered in public is indecent, then beheads her in a stroke of mercy, to spare her suffering. Ki then uses the commotion to sneak up on Shogun, puts a dagger to his throat and threatens to kill him unless he professes his faith in the Sheldamos gods.

Fun enough?

[Renard]

Sounds like a party.

[Harkovast]

StyxD that might be the best fan fiction ever written.

[Renard]

But it raises the question of how they all ended up on the battlefield on the same side to begin with.

Why didn't Muir object the Chen-Chen's presence in the first place? Why didn't Shogun notice her bare arms before? Why didn't he also attack Shan-Zu, and why didn't Shan-Zu defend Chen-Chen, or did Ki get to him first?

Why didn't they kill each other off earlier?

[Frostwolf18]

sake of common goal and purpose?

[Tiberius]

did you guys make the tang-dao seem enlightened, and tolerant compared the the "heroes"?

[Canuovea]

I don't think that if they were so intolerant they could have a common goal.

And Tiberius? Yes, I think StyxD did. Wow.

[StyxD]

@Renard
Now that this snipped has been promoted to fanfiction, I'll tell you, that these are not the right questions to ask. It's like asking a shipper "Why did those characters fall in love with each other, when they have never even met and, in fact, the last time we saw them they were on two different continents?". The usual answer is "Bah, my great work doesn't need to be constrained by trifle things such as 'canon', 'probability' and 'common sense'!".

Now, were the Tang-Dao that bad? The way I see it, they were just sticking to the principles they were raised with, while Zha-Tsung and her fanatical disciples skinned alive anyone who didn't immediately convert to Zha-Tsung's doctrine, surrender all their possessions to her and admit that she's a living, walking god.

Or something like that...