Let us compare two stories..., two stories, same comic, many difference

read this story arc to its end
Why do I deserve to die








Done? a good classic story about a small group trapped together, and one of them is the murderer of the others. It even ties back to an older classic story of the comic ----> Dinner at Arloest's



Now, read this one (it's the most current, so it isn't finished.)
what's pissing off Dalton







Done? A story about a small group trapped together, and one of them is murdering the others. It even ties back to an older story of the comic ----> Wednesday's child



So two story arcs, from the same author. Two stories, from one of my favorite web comics. Similar set ups, very different outcomes.

A few discussion points-

• Why is one better (don't overdo this one)
• How well do these stories reflect groups in stressful situations?
• The characters of "Why do I deserve to die" are very fleshed out. How did this help the story? Could there be a reason it's missing from the current arc?
• "What's pissing off Dalton" is currently incomplete. Where might this story be headed?
• what IS pissing off Dalton?
• Using the first story, and other stories by the author as a guide, what might the final message be?
• Why the F*** would you walk up to the guy who has just beat another man into a pulp, and say "Thanks"?

But....but I don't know how to read!

Jack as a webcomic is....I dunno even know what to say about it.
But it has always proved an effective place to post my advertising, so I gotta give it that!

But seriously....what the fuck is up with that comic?
Can we have one female character who isn't violently raped? Just one?

Story one-
Seriously? It was the muslim guy? We are going with that?
One guy keeps making racist comments about how the pakistani must be the terrorist and then it turns out he was right.
I guess that sort of counts as a double twist cause I assumed that was just too racist to go for.
Moral of the story- Never trust a muslim.

When listing religions Jack lists "Christian, islamic, muslim..."
Is Jack meant to be dumb for not knowing those last two mean the same thing?
The ending here is painfully preachy and the guy beng exploded by satan (the spikey haired one is satan, isn't he?) is really lame.

Also, how come in Jack heaven and hell are so fucking sadistic? I dont just mean the way they torture people in hell, this whole crazy game they make them play, why is the after life so damn unfair all the time?

So first one I don't like. I'll let you know how i get on with the next one.

I was amused by Deeper and Worse.
I think Bee guy, since he would appear to have more to lose, since he has a face.

I Will check out the rest of the stories when I get chance. I have read Jack before and its...Well it certainly is something alright!

the moral isn't don't trust Muslims. the moral was many things, that not being one of them. It points out that he didn't do it because he was a Muslim, he did it because he was a zealot, who twisted scripture to his own ends.

It was a good end, because in a world of Political correctness, and cliches, there are always the suspects you know are innocent. The obvious choice is always innocent, and the minority is always innocent. This is why scream is so good according to my friend, the killers were the obvious ones. In this story, it works because you weren't expecting it to be him, because it wouldn't be PC, so it comes as a surprise. And again they make a point of pointing out that he is not representative of the religion. That he twisted scripture to his own desires, that this was an evil person, with false beliefs (that by killing women they would serve him in death).

I fail to see the sadism of the after life

there were two female characters not raped in that story, they were the only female characters in the story.
There is one story, where the female lead prevents it from happening by crashing the car into a tree, killing the rapist, and luckily surviving herself (another classic story).
There are alot of other examples to be given, like everyone in "All work and no play", he story I wanted to use originally, but one of the pages is messed up.
So the idea that every female character is violently raped, is patently false.

This is actually the comic that probably first got me into the furry fandom. I've been reading it for 4-6 years now.

I read story number 2 before, diner at arloest....and what the fuck was that?

Woman gets raped and so kills herself so she goes to hell (what the fuck?) where her rapist has been turned into a demi god and gets to send her back where she helps people but then she has to go back to hell where she is going to get ass raped by her rapist for eternity.

WHAT THE FUCK?

That's just....I don't even know WHAT that is!

And Jack is an asshole.
how come he doesn't just kick drips fat ass and rescue her?
He's such a mopey douche, following rules that no one but him gives a fuck about even when it gets a nice woman raped for fucking eternity!

Arrrgh!

The comic Jack is kinda fascinating for me....probably not in the way its supposed to be.

Okay, they dont literally rape every single female character, but rape seems to come up almost constantly.
The woman in the car example you give is about a woman who is threatened with rape, by a guy who boasts about past rapes and then is made to give him a hand job. Yes she ultimately escapes but the story is very much "rape focused."

You cant say the after life isn't sadistic, its totally messed up! Story 2 is proof positive that hell and heaven are 100% unfair.
The victim is punished, while the rapist gets god like power and everything he wants in the end.
How is that not messed up?

I dont get why Jack says "I wont be your tool again, Drip"
Why the fuck are you being his tool now you big green pansy?
Drip actually admits that he and the others break the rules with impunity and Jack is the only one stupid enough to follow them....and Jack STILL does it.
Jack's pissing and moaning doesn't change the fact that he is completely complicit in helping a rapist. He could have saved her. No one enforces the goofy ass hell rules. But he chose to follow them.
What an asshole!

Saving Arloest

That entire arc is Jack rescuing Arloest, and kicking Drip's ass.

Do you have a problem with following rules? That's your whole arguement for why Jack is an ass hole, because he follows the rules. He might be foolish, and lack gusto, but he's not an ass hole.

You don't know the comic very well at all.

1. Committing suicide, sends you to hell. that's how it works in the comic. there is much debate in real life as to if that's true.

2. Drip is not a demi god. He's suffering in hell too. He can remember his acts in life, remember what it felt like, but never feel it again, unless it's consensual. There are also other things that he suffers from. His purpose in hell, is to make it even worse for everyone else. Drip doesn't get everything he wants.

3. Heaven, and purgatory are fair, but you have to get there first.

4. one of the reasons jack follows the rules, is because one time when he didn't follow the rules, the legions of heaven descended to kick his ass, then proceeded to kick his ass. The grim reaper is watched more closely, since he actually affects events outside of hell.

5. He says he won't be Drip's tool again, because it is his responsibility to bring the dead to their respective places, and drip is waiting for her there. after that Jack continues to petition the forces of heaven to help him save Arloest. eventually they do. They didn't immediately, because as a sin, They don't give a fuck what Jack has to say, so don't even listen to his voice mails. they do listen eventually and take immediate action.

Okay.

I've read the two stories that we were supposed to read.

Hmm. I prefer the earlier one so far. Why? Well, there is more substance to it. The second one the characters get killed off before we even know about them really. I know some appeared before, but... not for me. Second, well, I wanted to find out about the characters. The other one? Aside from playing to stereotypes, I wasn't really invested in it.

Meh.

The first one is more nuanced. I like its message as well, which I'll have to disagree with Hark, seemed to be made pretty clear.

Sometimes, you see, it isn't the Muslim and sometimes it is the Muslim. I see no reason to outlaw Muslim villains. At least this goes out of its way to make the point that not all Muslims are like that. Though repeating Islam and Muslim like they are different was certainly a mistake.

Anyway, groups under stress? I can't be sure. It depends on the people involved. I mean, Dalton is just bonkers. That is something he as an individual brings to the situation. A group is, after all, comprised of individuals. Still, a high level of stress increases the likelihood of people turning on each other, particularly if one person is responsible for the stress. Some people handle stress better than others I suppose.

Speaking of Dalton... maybe he just snapped under pressure and headache. Maybe the comic will end up with everyone dead. Maybe Dalton is like Jack. Jack is supposed to be Wrath, and Dalton sure gets angry easy... Or maybe Dalton is just entirely nuts.

The final message... okay. It is possible that they are all already dead and this is one of those "lets see how you take it." With Dalton acting as Jack did in the other one, dishing out judgment of a kind (even if Jack isn't technically doing so). He could even be Jack, but I doubt it.

Anyway. The bigot was an asshole. he died. The gay fellow was, well, annoying. Not because he was gay but... well... who walks up to the guy who just beat someone's head in and says "thanks"? I mean, really. The "slut" who there was no evidence for her being a slut, dies... but... I don't know why... aside from Dalton becoming more aggressive. Ultimately, Dalton might kill everyone and then turn on himself. Wrath consumes, and all that rot, yes? Because it seems Dalton hates everything, perhaps even himself.

I may have to agree with Hark as to the nature of the comic's afterlife though:

"1. Committing suicide, sends you to hell. that's how it works in the comic. there is much debate in real life as to if that's true." - Well, okay. But the punishment for suicide is being raped? By the same guy who raped you before? Even Dante was nicer than that, I believe they turned into trees over in Dante's version. Though I also feel the idea that suicide sending someone to hell is unfair as well. I'm not entirely sure I like the concept of "hell" either. But, eh, it's a story.

2. -Drip may not get everything he wants, but rape is apparently often more about domination than sexual pleasure. As such... Drip sounds like he gets what he wants to a fair degree... Not to mention what is happening to Arloest. Not fair at all.

3. - Okay.

4. - Also fairly reasonable.

5. - Apparently the forces of Heaven are assholes. Not just regular assholes, but, wait, "holier than thou" assholes. Okay, so they just succumbed to the sin of Pride. Maybe not as bad as all that, but still messed up.

But Hark, I wouldn't say that story is proof that Heaven and Hell (in the comic) are totally unfair. Only proof that Hell is unfair... Which is ironic really. One would think that Hell is supposed to be about (harsh) justice, but that isn't what comes out all the time.

I'm not sure that Jack is an asshole. I think that might be being a little itty bit unfair. It sounds as if he is basically forced to follow the rules while everyone else isn't. That, in itself, is patently unfair. Still, it doesn't make Jack an asshole.

I ma not saying you cant have a muslim villain.
OR indeed a muslim terrorist villain (they clearly exist and are assholes!)
Its just when one guy keeps going "oh Pakistan exports terrorists, he must be a terrorist if he comes from there!" and I am thinking hes a racist asshole...but then it turns out he is right! The correct course of action really was to go with the racist and racially profile the people present.
I know guys who are of pakistani ancestry in real life and the implication that they are all terrorists (which is what the comic implies by validating the racist who said this) is pretty fucked up to me.

Whats next? A story where a neo nazi guy in the group keeps accusing the jewish guy of stealing all the money cause jews are evil and greedy....and then the twist is it turns out the jew really is greedy and evil and stole all the money! What a TWIIIIST!
Then we can have the one where they need ot know who fell asleep at their post and one racist red neck says it must be the mexican cause we all know how lzy they are. Then the twist is...the mexican really is a stereotypical lazy mexican who had a siesta on the job! An even better TWIIIIST!

Those story ideas are basically the exact same thing. Some guy accuses another of a really bad stereotype and then what do you know? He was right!

But I like to be fair (occasionally) so I will just check....are there any muslim characters in any of hte other stories ? Y'know, ones that arent evil terrorist bombers? If we had some positive ones as well I guess this story might seem a bit less offensive to me.

If God said up the system in this comic, then the God in this comic is an asshole.
Woman gets raped. God made the universe and knows thats going to happen but allows it anyway.
So then woman is so fucked up by this she kills herself, so God decides to punish her.
What the fuck?
Sending people to hell for commiting suicide because their lives were fucked up through no fault of their own is INCREDIBLY evil.
Anyone who would support such a fucked up system is an asshole (including Jack.)

Also you cant deny that Drip has a MUCH better time of it in hell then his victim. Why is her punishment so much worse? He is given godlike powers (he can even bring people back to life when he feels like it!), he can rape and abuse people all he wants with only one restriction (and if the person makes an unfair deal with him the he can even get around that!) Considering he is meant to be the single worst rapist in the history of anything in this comic...God seems to have been really really nice to this guy in the afterlife!
An eternity to rape all he wants? Are we sure Hell is not just Drip heaven? God loves that rat!

So, Hark, your problem with this is not that there is a Muslim baddy, but that the racist fellow is validated? That is a far more supportable position. But I'm still not so sure. After all, the story didn't harp on about how the nasty racist fellow was right all along, instead it goes on to say, basically, the exact opposite. I'm on the fence here.

Hell, the fellow in the story wasn't even a terrorist per se, he didn't have a message. He was more a deranged serial killer who thought that killing women would make those women serve him in the afterlife... Not quite a stereotypical Muslim terrorist... in fact, I'm not sure that it directly said that he was Muslim, just that he was from Pakistan. But that is moot really, it could still be racist...

So, yeah, the racist fellow was right, but not exactly validated in his blanket statement. In fact, the idea that every religion has extremists seems to go directly against that statement, and that is placed as the main moral of the story.

I'm also against token good characters. "Hey, we've got bad Muslims, let's throw in a good one." "Why? What is the character to be?" "Who cares! We just need a good Muslim to make the PC people happy!" -That just dilutes a story beyond reasonability. (creating another word...)

"Woman gets raped. God made the universe and knows thats going to happen but allows it anyway."
-This doesn't make God an asshole. Varamortian would agree God is an asshole, and if the King of the Hill game taught us anything, its that Varamortian is morally splintered. (Assume there is a God): Would you like God to make all your choices for you? Yeah, the world might be a better place, but there would be no responsibility. Free Will is kinda important.

When it gets to the punishment part though, I completely agree Hark. In this comic it seems that God is less omnipresent and more "I'll have a bureaucracy of fallible beings run everything." So maybe it's not directly God's fault that things turned out so badly in that one instance.

Yeah, Drip has it much better than his victims, from the sound of it any way.

Drip's punishment is pretty vague. I only have a general idea of it. The fact that the rat bastard seems more inconvenienced by being in hell, then truly tormented, always bothered me, but I don't let that distract me from all the great qualities of this comic.

Can, is right. Free will plays a major role in everything. There was a story arc about it. Another classic----->Hell is that noise
It's about a WW1 soldier returning home, finding his wife had committed suicide, and then follows suit. He goes to hell for even more then just the suicide tho, and it's reflected in his punishment. Great twist ending, great ironic punishment.

Drip can't just snap his fingers, and your alive. It's left vague how he did it, but I think it was more along the lines of smuggling her out, then actually resurrecting her.

Her punishment for suicide wasn't to get raped. for suicides, the punishment is usually simply being in hell. Why she gets raped is because she ran across Drip, made a deal with him, and later went back to hell and had to fulfill the foolish agreement.

my thoughts on the current arc (Dalton)-

When it began I was hopeful. strong set up, diverse cast, strong opportunity for characterization. Who was Dalton, what were the pills? Why is that guy so bigoted? Why is that other guy so stereotypical on purpose, cause it's obvious that he does it on purpose, but why? She looks familiar, who is she? (I had forgotten who Wendy was.)

I was excited, it seemed to me that the comic had been in a bit of a rut. I didn't like the stories that had come out, they seemed to lack what many of the classic stories had. It seemed to be focusing on the overarching plot instead of morality plays, and stuff.
I was hopeful that it was on the rise again, since the story before the current, was fantastic, it went back to that WW1 soldier, and had a twist ending that genuinely took me by surprise, and made perfect sense.

So what happened? As the pages went on, we met the characters, they talked/yelled. we got a sense of who they were. It was looking to be a new classic.
THEN Dalton beat the bigot to death

What a twist. Perhaps Dalton is gay himself, perhaps he's snapped from stress. the possibilities were endless. How would the others react to this brutal murder. Would they be scared, keep their distance, talk about how he didn't deserve to die, restrain Dalton perhaps? I eagerly waited the next page.

...

Then peter walked up and thanked him.

this might still be good... right?

what follows was just page after page of murder, until only wendy and her child remained.

Paul and Peter's animosity to each other? never resolved
Why is that girl considered a slut? no reason, now she's dead or dying.
Why is Dalton so murderous? I'm beginning to not care.

So yeah, I'm disappointed by this.

As to Dalton being like Jack. He does have Wrath, but he is no wear near Jack's level.

He killed people.

6,955,134,938+ people

Jack killed the entire human race.

Dalton is Jack lite^21

That was an interesting one.

However, Todd there gets a punishment suited to his... beliefs.

Arloest, on the other hand, doesn't. And if ending up in hell is the punishment people face is just ending up in hell... then it is indiscriminate. There is no sense of proportion. Consider someone who killed children following orders... and one who killed children for fun. Is their punishment equal? Being in hell? Please.

Putting suicide on a similar level is... well... stupid. Hell in the comic is, basically, unfair. There is the odd bit of poetic justice, but it seems more or less... well... inconsistent.

Also, why were the murdered children there in hell? Or were they simply stand ins? I hope the latter because otherwise there is something seriously wrong.

I agree that the current arc had a degree of promise... but... yeah, then people start getting killed. Hmm. Yeah, doesn't work for me.

I don't know enough about Jack... still, there you go.

those children were facsimiles created to punish the mother. the real children probably just got reincarnated, and born to parents who were loving.

There was only one child in hell, he's gone back to earth now. His name was Fnar, and his mother died while pregnant with him. His mom had done some horrible things before, so she went to hell. Fnar hangs out in hell, but hell can't hurt him at all, since he's completely 200% innocent. He was a great character. He was the only thing in hell that actually made Jack happy. You learn who his father is (it's drip.). And I'm not saying anymore, because the thought of what happens sickens me.

Suffice to say, Drip deserved even more then what Jack did to him.
Fuck Drip!

Overall I'm not convinced in the fairness of Jack's universe. Nor, exactly, am I convinced of the benignity of it.

And I've got a problem for them... See, Purgatory is supposed to be temporary... as in, it won't be needed eventually...

Well, I've got a theoretical situation.

Massive Nuclear war breaks out and kills every sentient on the planet. There is no way to be reborn. Suddenly, Purgatory is filled with people... and they are stuck there. God's plan gets screwed over.

Now, it could theoretically happen. Why? Because the population apparently has free will... (yet angels and whatnot can apparently see the future)... In other words, God is making a gamble that they won't all wipe themselves out, which, when we consider our current situation, is quite possible.

So, either God is playing dice with the universe and Einstein was wrong in that comic, or there actually is no free will (per se).