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|The First Expedition > 30,000 Q&As > Primarch Discovery Order|
|Posted by: Marcoos Jan 13 2013, 10:10 PM|
| I know there was a thread covering this on the old forum, and I thought it would be useful to have this consolidated into one post.
Primarch Discovery Order Information
- All 20 Primarchs were recovered throughout the course of the Great Crusade.
- Horus was the first Primarch discovered (various sources, dating back throughout the history of writing on the Heresy).
- Rogal Dorn was discovered 7th (source The Lightning Tower short story).
- Alpharius was the last Primarch discovered (source Index Astertes: Alpha Legion).
I Legion Astartes ’Dark Angels’ – Lion El’Jonson
- After Magnus, Jaghatai Khan and Sanguinius – according to A Thousand Sons, these 3 Primarchs founded the Librarian order, and then introduced Librarians into other legions. In Descent of Angels, one of the Astartes who lands on Caliban (original home world of the Dark Angels) was a Librarian. Therefore the Lion must have be found after these three.
- Before Mortarion – According to the short story, The Lion from The Primarchs anthology, Lion El’Jonson fought alongside the ‘newly renamed Death Guard’ legion during the Great Crusade. The legion was only renamed as the Death Guard upon being reunited with Mortarion.
II Legion Astartes - Unknown
III Legion Astartes ’The Emperor’s Children’ – Fulgrim
- Before Konrad Curze – Fulgrim mentored Curze when he was first recovered (Index Astartes: Night Lords)
- Before Peturabo – in Angel Exterminatus there’s a scene where Peturabo reminisces about pledging his fealty to the Emperor. It records that Fulgrim had done this ‘years before’.
IV Legion Astartes ‘Iron Warriors’ – Peturabo
- After Fulgrim (see above) and Magnus – during the same scene mentioned above from Angel Exterminatus, Magnus is also discussed.
- Before Angron – in the excellent short story After Desh’ea (from Tales of Heresy), Kharn (a World Eater’s captain) is talking to Angron immediately after the finding of Angron, and he explains seeing the change in the Iron Warriors upon the discovery of their Primarch.
V Legion Astartes ‘White Scars’ – Jaghatai Khan
- Before Lion El’Jonson – see above.
VI Legion Astartes ’Space Wolves’ – Leman Russ
VII Legion Astartes ‘Imperial Fists’ – Rogal Dorn
- Before Konrad Curze – the short story Prince of Crows details the first meeting between the Emperor and Curze at which there are 4 Primarchs present, one of whom is Rogal Dorn.
VIII Legion Astartes ‘Night Lords’ - Konrad Curze
- After Rogal Dorn, Ferrus Manus, Lorgar and Fulgrim – from the aforementioned Prince of Crows short story.
IX Legion Astartes ‘Blood Angels’ – Sanguinius
- Before Mortarion – there is a passage in Flight of the Eisenstein where Nathaniel Garro (Captain in the Death Guard) recounts the recovery of a number of Primarchs before Mortarion is recovered – Sanguinius is one of these.
- Before Lion El’Jonson – see above.
- Before Angron – from the Forge World Betrayal sourcebook, it notes a comment made by Sanguinius about the Warhounds legion, which is the name of the World Eaters legion prior to the recovery of Angron.
X Legion Astartes ‘Iron Hands’ - Ferrus Manus
- Before Mortarion – the same information in Flight of the Eisenstein listed above (under Sanguinius) mentions Ferrus.
- Before Curze – see above.
XI Legion Astartes – Unknown
XII Legion Astartes ‘World Eaters’ – Angron
- After Peturabo and Vulkan – detailed by World Eater’s Captain Kharn in After Desh’ea.
- After Sanguinius – see above.
XIII Legion Astartes ‘Ultramarines’ – Roboute Guilliman
- Before Mortarion – the same information in Flight of the Eisenstein listed above (under Sanguinius) mentions Guilliman.
XIV Legion Astartes ‘Death Guard’ – Mortarion
- After Sanguinius, Ferrus, Guilliman and Magnus – detailed in Flight of the Eisenstein.
XV Legion Astartes ‘Thousand Sons’ – Magnus
- Before Lorgar – Magnus is with the Emperor when Lorgar is first discovered.
- Before Mortarion – see above.
- Before Peturabo – see above.
- Before Lion – see above.
- After Mortarion, Corax and Rogal Dorn – Ahriman, First Captain of the Thousand Sons relays information about how these 3 Primarchs were against the use of sorcery by the legion prior to the recovery of Magnus.
XVI Legion Astartes ‘Luna Wolves’/'Sons of Horus’ – Horus
XVII Legion Astartes ‘Word Bearers’ – Lorgar
- After Magnus – see above.
- Before Curze – see above.
XVIII Legion Astartes ‘Salamanders’ – Vulkan
- Before Angron – see above.
XIX Legion Astartes ‘Raven Guard’ – Corax
- Before Magnus – see above.
XX Legion Astartes - ’Alpha Legion’ – Alpharius
There are also references within the series to the number of years that certain Primarchs have taken part in the Great Crusade (the period covering the conquest of the Galaxy by the Emperor’s armies, and during which the Primarchs were rediscovered). It also seems to me that in the early days of the series, the authors treated the length of the crusade fairly loosely, something which appears to have tightened up more recently (Brotherhood of the Storm and Angel Exterminatus are both good examples of this).
Ferrus Manus – approximately 200 years.
Fulgrim – approximately 160 years (based on when his flagship was built – Fulgrim).
Peturabo – 150 years (Angel Exterminatus).
The Khan – 120 years (Brotherhood of the Storm).
According to Promethean Sun, Vulkan is found after ‘several’ of his brothers.
According to Deliverance Lost, ‘most’ of Corax’s brothers have already been found.
- Anyone paying attention to the details above will have noticed the contradiction within the discovery order. Magnus is found before Mortarion (according to Flight of the Eisenstein), but after him (according to A Thousand Sons).
- according to A Thousand Sons, Mortarion is found before Magnus who is before Lion. According to The Lion, Mortarion is after Lion.
If anyone has any mor info, please post it up
|Posted by: Malika Jan 13 2013, 10:14 PM|
|Wasn't it a bit vague with Corax that the Emperor mentioned 17 of his brothers having been found, upon which Corax asks the Emperor how that could be (meaning the two missing Legions), which is then dismissed by the Emperor?|
|Posted by: LaurieGoulding Jan 13 2013, 10:29 PM|
|I have a definitive list (with dates) for this. I will check to see if I am allowed to post it in the public domain, as it essentially removes any/all doubt from the order that the primarchs were discovered.|
|Posted by: Ahriman's Aide Jan 13 2013, 10:33 PM|
You could single handedly fix all our problems forever! I hope the powers that be say yes.
Does that list include II and XI, or will there be a couple of gaps in the list as well?
|Posted by: Algrim Whitefang Jan 13 2013, 11:04 PM|
|A definitive list like this would be very helpful, not to mention putting to rest all the debate and conjecture!|
|Posted by: Brother Handro Jan 14 2013, 01:00 AM|
| Wow a definitive list would be great, not to mention useful for working out fluff for your own characters/armies!
For the record, the Dusk Raiders fought for "more than eight decades" in the Great Crusade until "only a handful [of Primarchs] remained to be discovered" when they were reunited with Mortarion. (HH: Betrayal, p.122).
This tells us most were found well within the first century of the crusade, as you'd have expected. If Magnus was found after Mortarion, well, that's eighty-odd years of random flesh mutation and a tiny Legion size. Nasty!
|Posted by: Marcoos Jan 14 2013, 12:30 PM|
That was my reading of it, but Laurie has categorically stated otherwise. In fact thinking about it, I should have Corax as 18th found.
|Posted by: Marcoos Jan 14 2013, 12:32 PM|
That would be awesome if you could!
If not, then confirmation of how the contradictions will be resolved would be great.
|Posted by: Gagoc Jan 14 2013, 03:26 PM|
| Stop me if I'm wrong but wasn't Horus the first Primarch found, and wasn't Alpharius the last?
Also Corax being the 18th found doesn't fit, as he is said to be found before Magnus, but he was found before Lorgar, Perturabo, LEJ and possibly Mortarion.
That would mean he could only be the 16th found at the latest.
That's another Inconsistency.
Unless the 17 quoted by the Emperor included those sons he knew of, maybe even was in communication with, but had not yet met in person?
Such has been inferred before.
|Posted by: LaurieGoulding Jan 14 2013, 09:59 PM|
| Where does it say that Corax was discovered before Magnus?
IIRC, in the old IA articles (which are no longer strictly canon) it simply says that Dorn and Corax were among the Legions that objected to the Librarius, which was set up by the Thousand Sons, White Scars etc.
|Posted by: Ullis Temeter Jan 14 2013, 11:27 PM|
|On some level, might not Magnus have been the first primarch "discovered" by the Emperor? Not in a physical sense, but in terms of Magnus accessing the warp with his mind and communing with the Emperor on Terra. From the Thousand Sons Index Astartes, "It has been suggested that the face-to-face meeting of Emperor and Primarch was a virtual afterthought, their minds having long since found each other across the Warp".|
|Posted by: Marcoos Jan 14 2013, 11:37 PM|
No book to hand to 100% confirm this, but from notes and memory there is a section on page 385 of A Thousand Sons which talks about a number of Primarchs objecting to the legion (reference the number of mutations) prior to the legion's reuniting with Magnus. The listed Primarchs are Dorn, Mortarion and Corax.
|Posted by: LaurieGoulding Jan 14 2013, 11:48 PM|
|Ah yes. I recall that. The key is in the wording.|
|Posted by: Ahriman's Aide Jan 14 2013, 11:51 PM|
So, have you inquired yet as to whether you can reveal the truth to us or not?
|Posted by: HandOfIron Jan 16 2013, 11:15 AM|
|Now, Laurie, that would be an incredibly useful list! Looking forward to seeing that.|
|Posted by: Marcoos Jan 16 2013, 02:53 PM|
Hi Laurie, I'm genuinely not trying to be obtuse, but I have re-read that section of ATS, and I don't get how it could be read other than Corax (and Dorn & Mortarion) being found before the physical reuniting of the Emperor and Magnus. Not sure if you are referring to the Emperor and Magnus having met psychically already? If not this, could you be more explicit as I'd love to know what I've missed...
|Posted by: Xisor Jan 16 2013, 09:30 PM|
Good gumdrops, Laurie! This is good news indeed.
I wonder, has the question been asked or pondered much as to how long the Primarchs were on their homeworlds prior to discovery?
I ask only as I thought it'd be an interesting bit to stretch and play about with for story purposes. Consider, as a hypothetical example:
- Horus is discovered 25 years after the Primarchs go missing. He's been on Cthonia for twelve years. (Makes him 'twelve years alive*' on discovery.)
- Say Dorn is discovered next, 38 years after the Primarchs go missing. He's been on Inwit for 40 years. (E.g. he emerged 2 years before he was lost on Terra. The warp, eh?)
- Not only that, but when he meets Horus (assuming he ages normally in the Imperium), Horus will only be 25, whereas Dorn will be 40! Unfortunately for Dorn, many of those years have been him in the company of the Emperor gaining insight and tutelage, whilst Dorn has spent much of his time 'Emperoring' Inwit and its surrounds...
You get the idea, I hope. The way the warp works, their ages and relative experience might not quite work out the way one expects. (E.g. if Alpharius is found last but has been alive and kicking around the galaxy 'on his own' [ ] for three centuries anyway, incorporating into the Imperim might leave him roughly on level-pegging with the other Primarchs, despite being ostensibly 'newer', if not actually younger.
By even more hypotheticals, if Vulkan was found one-hundred and fifty years in, but had only been 'out' on Nocturne for fifteen years, he'd be profoundly young and inexperienced in comparison to Horus, even if his innate physical, biological and psychic capacity might be relatively similar (i.e. perhaps they are all 'matured primarchs' when discovered, their life experiences can only really inform their personalities, not their respective abilities?).
Key thought: The warp's funny, not everyone emerges at the same time**, how long did each spend on their homeworld prior to being found?
* Alive as in 'out of the pod and mixing with humans'. We can ignore how long they spent in the warp as it could be anything between eternity, no time at all and Stilton.
** Of course, the warp being funny as it is, their arrival on each of their home planets might well be one of the few all-at-once events, perhaps arriving five minutes before the left Terra!
|Posted by: Markus Krell Jan 16 2013, 09:45 PM|
| I like your thinking, but I doubt we'll ever know.
There's so much we'd like to know; like the real reasons why the traitors really betrayed - apart from Alpharius & Magnus... and possibly Angron... and Fulgrim... and Night Haunter... and Lorgar. What I really mean is, why did Perturabo and Mortarion turned traitor?!!
Best thing is, make it up yourselve!!
|Posted by: HandOfIron Jan 17 2013, 11:56 AM|
|It would be nice to know, but there's only so much we should know before the mystery is kinda taken away. I really would like to know the order of discovery, but with other details kept vague as such. We just need to keep giving Laurie grief till he stumps up the goods!|
|Posted by: Ullis Temeter Jan 24 2013, 12:19 AM|
|Posted by: Ahriman's Aide Jan 24 2013, 12:32 AM|
Yes Laurie, we've been waiting here with baited breath...
|Posted by: Gagoc Jan 24 2013, 11:24 AM|
| There's a good chance that Laurie can't let us know the full list.
But maybe he can at least drop some heavy hints, possibly a few choice details?
I'd be satisfied with that.
|Posted by: LaurieGoulding Jan 24 2013, 12:20 PM|
|I'm pretty sure I can let you know the order, but not the dates...|
|Posted by: Markus Krell Jan 24 2013, 12:28 PM|
|The order is fine... pleeeeeeeeeeeeeease!!|
|Posted by: LaurieGoulding Jan 24 2013, 12:32 PM|
| Here you go, straight from the horse's mouth:
[DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS]
Magnus the Red
[DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS]
Please bear in mind that there is a difference between a primarch being found, and a primarch taking command of their Legion.
|Posted by: Ahriman's Aide Jan 24 2013, 12:42 PM|
Now that is interesting. I thought both the lost Primarchs were purged before Corax was recovered (According to Deliverance Lost).
|Posted by: Aurelian Jan 24 2013, 12:46 PM|
|Wow, that is very interesting indeed! I'd of never guessed that Russ would of been the 2nd Primarch to be found. However, the more I think about it the more it fits in with his character. It help to explain somewhat Russ's unflinching loyalty to the Big E if he was found early on in the Crusade.|
|Posted by: Marcoos Jan 24 2013, 12:54 PM|
| Hi Laurie,
Firstly, thanks for posting this up! It's great to have a definitive list.
Three questions if I may?
1. Is this the discovery order list, or the placed in command list? (I assume the former but...)
2. Is there an explanation to some of the apparent contradictions?
3. As you have posted on here, are we oay to discuss this with a wider audience, or is a TFE resource only?
|Posted by: LaurieGoulding Jan 24 2013, 01:07 PM|
| It's not really open for discussion, but feel free to post it around wherever. This is just the list that all future GW stuff is likely to be based on, and we've gone right up to the most recent novels in creating this.
(Please bear in mind that we will fix two really minor details at the next printing of one of the novels.)
|Posted by: Markus Krell Jan 24 2013, 01:07 PM|
| Thank you!!
Does that mean that the Emperor's Children didn't recover their loses after the 'accident' until much later in the Great Crusade?
Interesting... hmmm, this raises lots of questions . I bet the loss of the 3rd Primarch was a big deal as he would have been established, unlike the 19th one.
It also makes the whole Fulgrim/Ferrus Manus [spolier] more poignant as they may well have known one another for so long.
Sheds some light on what could have happend to the 19th Primarch, as he was found second-to-last. Corruption? Goes against the Emperor's word?
|Posted by: LaurieGoulding Jan 24 2013, 01:09 PM|
|Hence why you should all be buying the hardbacks - they are canon-flawless.|
|Posted by: Brother Handro Jan 24 2013, 01:22 PM|
Not necessarily; the 3rd Primarch may not have had time be be really established, depending on the scale of his 'problems', (which I'm assuming would be pretty big, if no one in the entire universe is allowed to know about him!), and so he may have been 'dealt with' quickly once it had been decided to get rid of him.
Also note that Russ, 'the executioner', was found before him, meaning he would have been able to go chop-chop when the time was right.
This assumes of course that it was the 3rd Primarch's Legion that was destroyed by Russ, and not merely assimilated (possibly) by the Ultramarines.
It's all rumour and speculation to anyone but the Emperor and his inner circle...
Thanks for this list Laurie, that's really interesting, and no doubt will be quite helpful to people brewing their fluff in the future!
|Posted by: Marcoos Jan 24 2013, 01:59 PM|
Cool thank you!
|Posted by: Xisor Jan 24 2013, 05:44 PM|
| Handro, from the same point, number two might have fought for decades and been well established. Or Russ killed him early on in an attempt to vie for power before being 'house trained' by the Emperor, 'executing' little brother to show Russ can be trusted.
Much depth here. Had this been known to McNeill on writing "Fulgrim" I'd imagine much more'd have been made of Ferrus & Prince Fulgy (Fabulous he ... *sings*) respective seniority and the depth of that bond compared to their brothers.
Hopefully this'll spark authors' minds in this respect. A bit more 'natural context'.
|Posted by: Sinzaren Jan 24 2013, 06:03 PM|
|Thanks for the list Laurie, really interesting to see. A few surprises to what I had in mind. I always thought Dorn and Magnus were in the first few found.|
|Posted by: Marcoos Jan 24 2013, 07:11 PM|
| Dorn is one of the few known for a fact in a specific place. The Lightning Tower states he was the 7th one to be found.
Biggest surprise to me was Sanguinius. I always pictured him as one of the first, especially given his bond with Horus.
Having said that, we know Angron has been around for 100 years, so that means at least the first 17 were discovered within the first 100 years - so one every 6 years. Plenty of times for bonds to be forged and rivalries created!
|Posted by: Ullis Temeter Jan 24 2013, 07:31 PM|
|Obliged for the list, sir. Intriguing possibilities to say the least. I'm almost thinking the first "lost" Primarch might have been in action for a while possibly. If you consider Dorn knew of both of them and the rumor involving them being blended into the Ultras, you have quite a few Primarchs involved found in between Guilliman and the "lost" Primarch. I'd almost say more questions are raised with the list in hand than existed before! Nice work. Keep us chomping at the bit for more!|
|Posted by: Gagoc Jan 24 2013, 08:15 PM|
|So, if that's the order the Primarchs were found in could the order they took command of their respective legions be different?|
|Posted by: Malika Jan 24 2013, 08:31 PM|
| There's one thing I don't get... Weren't the White Scars around before the Dark Angels? Unless there is a major gap of time between the Dark Angels being reunited with the Emperor and the Dark Angels going on campaign together with the White Scars.
That would make more sense, since it would allow the Dark Angels to have fought more of them, and make the references made in Grey Angel by Luther make sense.
|Posted by: Rider Jan 24 2013, 08:46 PM|
I take it this means that the hardback reprints are re-edited?
The number of simple errors, nevermind canon issues, that have been in them has always irked... lol.
On saying that it's never stopped them being a good read, some more than others.
I am surprised that the 19th primarch discovered was one of the [deleted] pair. I t always seemed to come across as something that had happened long ago, way way back in the crusade.
|Posted by: Ullis Temeter Jan 24 2013, 08:55 PM|
Are they Black Library website exclusives? I was looking for Flight on Amazon and couldn't find it.
|Posted by: voltan Jan 24 2013, 11:14 PM|
Or they could of been girls and there's no girls allowed in the brotherhood of primarchs
|Posted by: Phoebus Jan 25 2013, 12:52 AM|
First, thanks for that post. It's really nice to have a no-kidding "discovery order". I do have some questions, though:
Luther returned from the Dark Angels' "first campaign" ('Descent of Angels', pg 211) on the 147th year of the Great Crusade ('Fallen Angels', pg 7). There is no implication that other campaigns have been fought, or that the Lion waited before taking command of the Dark Angels. 'Grey Angel', however, states that Luther fought alongside Abaddon at some point before his exile. This is merely my opinion, and not an attack on John French, but I think it's hard to find room for that interpretation in 'Descent of Angels'.
I bring this up to show the context surrounding the Lion's order of discovery. With that in mind, consider the idea that the Lion was supposedly found before Jaghatai Khan. 'Descent of Angels' strongly implies that it is the Dark Angels who are the junior Legion upon arrival to Sarosh, whose Primarch-led fleet is a secondary one lacking the resources to wage its own campaigns.
Or, consider Lorgar when compared to the Lion. The events of Monarchia happened 43 years prior to Isstvan V (per the introduction to "The First Heretic"), or roughly the 157th year of the Great Crusade. Lest we think that Lorgar might have been found in the ten years since Luther went home, though, in pg 63 of 'The First Heretic' Kor Phaeron states that they (he and Lorgar) "have worshipped at the wrong altar for over a hundred years ..." This would imply that Lorgar was found before the 57th year of the Great Crusade. In order for the above order of discovery/command to work, then, Lorgar must not have commanded the XVII Legion for ninety years.
Similarly, let's consider Angron. On page 152 of 'Betrayer', Gharte the World Eater states that "Seventy years of serving the Butcher and his Nails is long enough." The battle of Armatura occurred one year after Isstvan V, which means Angron had been found before the 140th year of the Great Crusade. That places him prior to the Lion as well, unless he had to wait several years before he took command. 'After Desh'ea', though, doesn't imply that... It implies a fairly immediate (if bloody and brutal!) process wherein Kharn convinces his Primarch to assume command.
Also, let's look at Perturabo. On page 51 of 'Angel Exterminatus', we are told that Perturabo discovered the crumbling plans from which he designed the Cavea Ferrum a century and a half prior to the book's events. That puts his discovery at least somewhere near the 50th year of the Great Crusade. Page 365 also speaks of "a century and more of war".
Finally, 'Deliverance Lost' has the Emperor referring to the expunged Primarchs in conversation with Corax... and the implication is that they are BOTH gone. The order of discovery offered, though, has Corax discovered and/or assuming command prior to one of the expunged Primarchs being found.
I know, I know, the warp plays a role, and no clock is perfect given the distances involved in galactic travel. Still, when the author goes out of his way to offer me a date relative to the Great Crusade or to a defining event of the Great Crusade or the Heresy, I think it would be a shame to ignore it for fear of it being irrelevant due the issues the warp poses. And in this case, if the Black Library folks are using this list as a reference for their future writing, doesn't it matter that the list disregards what's already been written?
I hate to sound rude, it's not my intent to tell you guys you're doing a bad job (I love the books!)... but in this case, either ...
1. ... I noticed inside of 30 minutes that a list created after consulting the latest books had at least three instances that contradicted previously published material, or ...
2. ... the dates offered in said material were either incorrect or subject to warp vagary.
(Or maybe the detail you alluded to being fixed has to do with the date marking Luther's return to Caliban in 'Fallen Angels' being adjusted, in which case... well played.)
In the case of #2, perhaps there should be less emphasis on dates in the novels, more emphasis on the dates not being absolute, or a combination of both. But if it's #1, I wholeheartedly offer my services as a part-time fact-checker - for free! Kidding, kidding. But no, seriously. I'll do it.
Again, I hope you don't take this as me hating on the Black Library or the Horus Heresy. When most of my complaints amount to stuff like, "This date doesn't match with that Primarch!" then you guys are doing a good job.
|Posted by: Magos Explorator Jan 25 2013, 02:54 PM|
Thanks for posting this list!
Out of interest, what were these two minor details you mention?
|Posted by: HandOfIron Jan 25 2013, 04:37 PM|
| The first few and end few are about what I had guessed at, thereabouts. I don't know why, but I expected Perturabo and Vulkan to be the other way round. Same goes with Lorgar and Guilliman, I rather expected Lorgar and Pertie to have been more near the top of the list.
You can see that the majority of those that were found first are those that remained loyal to Terra and the Emperor, again not surprising. Nice to get a definitive order of finding though :-) good work, Laurie.
|Posted by: Gagoc Jan 25 2013, 05:33 PM|
| Voltan, all the Primarchs were found and reunited with their Legions before the two 'Lost Legions' were lost.
I think it is possible that this list could give us rough ideas for when certain events happened.
For example, based of the Primarchs worlds it is possible that the Inner Galactic Wars could have happened around the time Fulgrim was found, as late as when the Khan was found, or any of the years between the two.
|Posted by: Ullis Temeter Jan 28 2013, 05:53 AM|
Bump. I've got an Amazon gift certificate from my birthday and would love to buy the hardback version of Flight, but if it's a BL exclusive, I'll do something else with it.
|Posted by: Xisor Jan 28 2013, 08:22 PM|
| Ullis: I'm pretty sure the hardbacks are direct only. You can, however, get the big ol' paperbacks in bookshops and normal places. I don't know if the TPBs for the pre-existing ones are being released though.
Mild Angel Exterminatus Spoilers
Anyhow, reading through Angel Exterminatus it caught my eye that Petry muses about climbing the 'Astartes Tower' on Terra.
I don't recall quite how rigid he was being when he mused on it but: not all of them (the Primarchs) managed to successfully climb the tower - it was apparently much more than a symbolic act. My guess'd be that this is how one of the Losties (not Primarch Jack or Primarch Kate) managed to reveal themselves as unsuitable.
|Posted by: Marcoos Jan 28 2013, 09:26 PM|
They're BL exclusive, not even available in your local GW store.
|Posted by: Markus Krell Jan 29 2013, 07:20 PM|
| Interesting in what position the Night Lords and World Eaters were discovered; it explains why their 'unorthodox' methods weren't stopped earlier on in the GC as they were relatively recent primarchs/legions.
Also, most of the later legions were more assault-style legions compared to the diversity of the earlier legions and the infantry-style of the middle legions. Could this be a coincidence or was it planned?
|Posted by: Augustus Jan 31 2013, 12:15 AM|
| Good find, Krell.
and maybe to some extent Corax can be considered Assault Legions. Why Were they found near the end?
Also. The Emperor tells Corax that two of his brothers were gone, but then he also tells him that has found " most of them". Implying that the Emperor knew he would find the remaining. If he knew he could find the remaining then he possibly already knew what fate would befall or had befallen the missing primarchs. So there is really nothing conclusive about what the Emperor told Corax other than "most of them"
quotes: "How many of my brothers have you found?â€™
â€˜Most of them,â€™ replied the Emperor."
"â€˜Yes, you have brothers,â€™ said the Emperor, smiling at his sonâ€™s delight. â€˜Seventeen of them. You are the primarchs, my finest creations.â€™
â€˜Seventeen?â€™ Corvus asked, confused. â€˜I remember that I was number nineteen. How can that be so?â€™
The Emperorâ€™s expression grew bleak, filled with deep sorrow. He looked away as he replied.
â€˜The other two,â€™ he said. â€˜That is a conversation for another day.â€™ " Again the Emperor knew he would find all 17. But the two were either already gone or he knew they would be.
In betrayer Kharn is talking about how there was "Speculation was rife, from the muttered worry that their primarch might already be dead, to the hope he would be a warrior and general to rival Horus, Guilliman, Dorn or the Lion." Implying that Angron came after the Lion thereby hinting that the Lion's time has been changed.
In First heretic there is a conversation about what facets the Primarchs represent of the Emperor. "I will never understand tactics and logistics with the effortless ease of Guilliman or the Lion." and "The Lion is your fatherâ€™s rationality â€“ his analytical skill â€“ unburdened by conscience." The former was said by Lorgar the later by Kor Phaeron. These words were spoken 43 years before Istvaan. If so then the Lion is well know to a lot of people despite being cast as a recluse of a primarch. Hinting that the Lion's timelime has been altered.
|Posted by: Markus Krell Jan 31 2013, 09:33 AM|
| The Emperor/Corax conversation was a tease, making the reader think that he (E) was referring to the deleted primarchs. This is backed up by the fact that we know Alpharius was the last primarch to be found... and Laurie told us too!
Of course the 19th primarch was expunged, but I don't think that the Emperor would have sense a taint otherwise they wouldn't have taken command of their legion.
The good thing is we don't know when everyone was found and what length of time they spent with one another. We only know that Horus was around and spent longer with the Emperor.
The latter primarchs didn't spend nearly enough time with the Emperor, which could explain why most turned.
If you look at who turned from the early primarch, the choice to betray was more to do with Chaos than freewill; while the latter primarchs turned because of Horus.
The Lion is probably more analytical/reserved than say Leman Russ and is considered a 'recluse'. I'm sure in strategy meetings etc., he is more vocal though.
|Posted by: Morihaus Feb 24 2013, 08:12 PM|
There are some conflicts.
Emp and Corax dialogue seems to imply he's not the 18th one. Can anypne explain it to me?
Again Corax: he, along with Mortarion and Dorn was supposedly found before Magnus.
Conflict with Magnus/Mortarion, 2 sources - it's someones fault, I think.
Lion and JKhan - Jkhan supposedly was before Lion(and Magnus)
But what makes me wonder is the 19th Primarch.
Why is he so late yet Ferrus Manus don't recall him.
(He also doesn't recall 3rd one btw.)
Also Laurie, our Saviour, can you answer some questions:
In "HH:B1 betrayal" we have the names of the Expunged ones blackened but this signs some idea behind their names(by not EXPUNGING the even full lines, but CIA-esque)
I'm not asking for revealing their names(but if you want...) but telling us if they have names at all.
That would mean that they might appear someday, somewhere...
I'm a voracious beast, and eternally knowledge-hungry fiend:
Can you elaborate on that:
"Please bear in mind that there is a difference between a primarch being found, and a primarch taking command of their Legion. "
3.Also the definite Primarchs recovery dates aren't for us mortals to see?
3. The length of the Crusade itself.
Is there any definite answer with dates, chronology and stuff?
Will it ever be ?
It's most likely ~210+, but some sources claim that Primarchs did things in the span of hundreds/centuries of years(in my mind: at least 300yrs).
Some Fenrisan-born commander also says that he's fought with Russ for 3hundred years and 2 hundred years he campaigned(GC, methinks). That with the Russ being 2nd and Horus being the one and only for 12(his lone life at Cthonia)+30yrs(before Russ was recovered) makes GC at least 230yrs!.
Moreover, Death of the Silversmith also implies that at the time the last battles were fought on Terra, Ferrus(and most likely Fulgrim) was present and active with his Legion. And shortly after that the 63rd E.Fleet(of Horus) was launched and "nearly 2hundred years have passed" by the time of Ullanor Triumph. That would mean even more that 240yrs(counting Horus, counting Leman, counting II, counting Ferrus and possibly Fulgrim".
ANYWAY MANY GREAT THANKS!!!!!! XD
(Note from myslef, I see that recently there are more and more hints(dates, prophecies etc), even some lines about the Missing Ones. Does that mean anything or is only a never-ending teasing?)
|Posted by: grungni Feb 25 2013, 04:24 PM|
I know you have been thanked endlessly, but its a godsend to have someone from GW to at least say ill see if I can help.
To the point I assume that you didn't add the dates as you were talk of doing earlier because it fell into the category of what cant be shared, if not, dates would be amazingggg.
If you can't then seriously no worries and I hope you have a bright future at GW. Live the dream that all WAR fanboys dream of
|Posted by: Marcoos Jul 24 2013, 07:30 AM|
Sorry for the threadomancy, but...
There is a discrepancy between this list and Vulkan Lives. On page 163, in a flashback sequence,
'You could take these grievances to Lord Horus or Lord Dorn.' [said Numeon]
Vulkan nodded. 'I have always valued the counsel of my elder brothers'.
|Posted by: LaurieGoulding Jul 24 2013, 08:01 AM|
| Metaphorical. He could even be referring to them in stature, or character, or perceived rank/authority.
They are all, technically, the same age. Or, alternatively, they might have emerged from their pods earlier than him, and so been "born" first, and lived longer lives before being rediscovered by the Emperor.
That's definitely a wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey thing, rather than a canon error.
|Posted by: Matus Jul 24 2013, 08:02 AM|
| That's quite a strange thing for him to say. They were discovered in at different time, but elder is a synonym for older, ie born earlier and they were all created at the same time, ie they are all the same age...
Edit: Can I point out that while this post is a little redundant, when I wrote it laurie had not yet replied, he must have done so while I was typing.
|Posted by: Nartak Jul 24 2013, 08:22 AM|
| The way I see it, Vulkan is rather humble and seems to have great respect and love for his brothers, looking up to them. He probably sees himself as younger in terms of abilities, mindset etc and sees them as his elders, or even betters.
As Laurie says, it's more of a perception thing.
|Posted by: Marcoos Jul 24 2013, 08:26 AM|
| Haha! I hadn't considered them all being physically the same age (I'm sure there's a riddle about 21 babies being created at the same time from the same father but only two of them being twins. No?). I'd jumped straight to 'age = how long ago they had been discovered'!
Still seems a strange choice of word, perhaps it's a peculiar synonym for senior or wiser.
Agreed it's not a canon issue. Let's go with it's a WWTW thing (can't bring myself to type it!)
|Posted by: newguy Jul 25 2013, 06:50 PM|
|Who was the last Primarch to be discovered? Was it Alpharius or was it Omegon? And does it matter?|
|Posted by: LaurieGoulding Jul 25 2013, 08:00 PM|
| Omegon was never 'discovered'.
And no, it doesn't matter.
|Posted by: Lokiju Jul 25 2013, 08:23 PM|
Strange that the Lore Master dont write in this thread, isnt it?: http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_First_Expedition/index.php?showtopic=426
I cant say?
|Posted by: Markus Krell Jul 25 2013, 09:37 PM|
|Each primarch gives off a psychic aura. Can we assume that the Emperor and Magnus were able to tell that Alpharius wasn't 'complete' and that Omegon was his twin or would they both have been present in meetings with potential psykers to keep their secret?|
|Posted by: Barn Jul 25 2013, 11:08 PM|
|Yep the twins.|
|Posted by: newguy Jul 26 2013, 12:51 AM|
|The reason I asked who was discovered is because it is not cut-and-dried in the published material that Alpharius was always "Alpahrius" and Omegon was always "Omegon". Isn't it implied they played all kinds of games because, they liked to play all kinds of games. Guilliman and others didn't like that. Horus, interestingly, did. So... was Omegon ever impersonating Alpharius (and vice-versa) when dealing with the Imperium (pre-Heresy)? And if not, why not? It would be the ultimate test of their ability to confound.|
|Posted by: LaurieGoulding Jul 26 2013, 08:38 AM|
That would be commenting on the future development of the series. I don't do that - I just talk about what exists, and what is canon already.
Even if I said "Yes, the Emperor is actually Chuck Norris and Omegon creates the first realistic toupee in the history of mankind", it doesn't mean that it would eventually come true. The authors might write something different, or it might get changed editorially, etc. I'm not omniscient, I can just see a little further than most people on this board.
But I can say with authority that Saul Tarvitz is dead, because I know that it is true, because it already happened...
|Posted by: Lokiju Jul 26 2013, 09:43 AM|
LOL this is a confirmation that Lord Kaldor Draigo is the Emperor and Chuck Norris?
|Posted by: Markus Krell Jul 26 2013, 09:54 AM|
| No, Saul Tarvitz is the Emperor; that's why we didn't see him die!!
Was there a large gap between finding each of the primarchs (apart from Horus obviously)?
In Fulgrim, Ferrus constructs weapons for Fulgrim and Vulkan, so we can assume that he does for Russ, Horus etc. Would he do this for the later primarchs?
I'm wondering if there were two groups of primarchs; the 'originals' and the late-comers, which may have caused resentments etc.?
|Posted by: Ogun Jul 26 2013, 12:13 PM|
I'd say you were on to something there. Six out of the nine traitors were in the last 50% to be found. Angon, Lorgar, Konrad Curze, Mortarion, Perturabo all have daddy issues. Perturabo, Lorgar and Alpharius all have issues with 'elder' brothers. The Khan seems to have been a difficult one too. Actually, all the problem legions (the ones who had bad reputations even before the heresy) are in the last half of the discovery list, excepting the Space Wolves who were really loyal. There definitely looks to be a generational divide of some sort!
|Posted by: Lightsmith Nov 1 2013, 12:10 AM|
True, although it could mean the information was not purged until after Corax was found. Still I agree that Corax should have been found after. In my personal list which is fairly similar both the 2 missing primarchs were found early on to give them time to have events happen, It seems odd that a Primarch would only be there for a few years before some major event happens.
Of course even with a legitimate list it can change, there are existing cannon conflicts so things could all be shuffled in the future.
About the Lost Primarch Names:
"The length of these black lines indicates that the name of the II Legion is quite long, only just shorter than "Emperor's Children" and the name of the XI Legion is about the same length as "Thousand Sons". The name of the II Primarch is approximately as long as "Alpharius" (also suggesting just a single name) and the name of the XI Primarch is about the same length as "Magnus the Red" (suggesting either two names or one with a title)." Some speculation on the names.
Length of the Crusade:
Start: 801.M30 (per 6th Edition Rule Book)
003.M31 Ullanor Crusade Ends
End: 006.M31 (Virus Bombing of Isstvan III) or 12.M31 (Horus Attacks Terra)
It spanned about 200 years or so.
There seems to be a retcon here, previous editions (SM 3rd) puts the Crusade starting M29, it appears that recent material has moved up a lot of the dates, i.e. creation of marines, fall of eldar, etc.
Between 815 - 845.M30 Horus, Leman, Lion and Fulgrim as listed as being found.
846.M30 - Lorgar is found
846 - 885.M30 Konrad is found (with Dorn and Ferrus present)
886.M30 Khan is found
908.M30 Angron is found (conflicts with Magnus being found)
935.M30 Magnus is found (Above)
948 - 963.M30 Corvus is found
I believe Alpharius and Omegon were found together, but Omegon was never stated since the fact that there were two of them was a big secret. So when Alpharius was found he was with him, but never acknowledged.
In terms of how the order affects who turned on the Emperor. I feel that its less of the order they were found and more of their bonds with each other over the Emperor or other situations.
Lorgar was really the only one who turned on the Emperor in my mind. The rest were tricked, etc.
Fulgrim became possessed by the Demonic Sword found on Laer.
Magnus ran out of options due to Horus / Lorgar's conspiricy,
Horus only changed due to the plans of Lorgar, being near death and at the mercy of the Chaos Gods.
Alpharius didn't technically turn to Chaos, he chose to side with Horus for the good of man.
I am not certain about Mortarion or Perturabo.
Angron was more of an attack dog and Horus just had the leash.
Konrad had some sort of mental problems.
It seems most legions had "skeletons" of some sort.
Space Wolves were hypocritical since they hated Sorcery but had a lot of Occult stuff.
Sanguinius kept the Gene defect from the Emperor
The Lion came from a Chaos Tainted world, who knows what happened as a child.
Guilliman seemed to have a lot of power, personally I don't like him
White Scars some said they had issues fitting in, I haven't read much on them so I'm not sure.
|Posted by: Fletch Nov 1 2013, 12:01 PM|
Magnus was present when Lorgar was found.
|Posted by: Lightsmith Nov 2 2013, 12:43 AM|
| True, i think that may have been from outdated material.
Also this leads me to believe that if the Space Wolves destroyed another legion (as hinted in the Heresy series) it would be the 2nd. Most don't know about it happening, so it would apply to an earlier legion, the 11th is listed fairly recently so if was against that one then more people would be aware.
|Posted by: Xisor Apr 29 2015, 10:21 PM|
| Great googly threadomancy, Heretics!
Nevertheless, I was browsing some details and it occurred to me how much of a 'deal' was made about Vulkan being discovered, but not explicitly taking up his place at the head of his Legion until many years afterwards. (Indeed, there's a fair whack of 'he was kept secret, except from the other primarchs' about it.)
Similarly, there was statement (I think in book 2 or 3 from FW, though I can't be sure) that Perturabo (12th on the list!) wasn't reunited with the Iron Warriors until the 840sM30. Now, by my reckoning, and even accepting that some may have been kept secret, it leaves us with an odd little conundrum - 12 of the Primarchs would have been found in the first ~50 years of the Crusade.
I'm not sure what I make of it. Whilst in some sense, it feels terribly quick, on the otherhand it's not too troubling at all. Magnus and Fulgrim, who're within that twelve, have to take very substantial 'time outs' from the Crusade to fix their legions - who knows how long that takes (or takes for it to take effect). Similarly, if several are found in quick succession (say, Fulgrim & Ferrus, given their close friendship), then that leaves ample time for 'space' too. Two found at once could leave almost a decade before finding another - especially if Magnus was never really absent and if Roboute & Dorn were slotted into their places in the Crusade without much fuss (more like a 'levelling up')... that would make good sense too. Especially, as Laurie mentioned with 'timey wimey' being a factor - if Roboute & Dorn were accomplished space-faring overlords in their own right, and had been for many decades, then their acclimatisation to the Imperium might have been almost inconsequential.
(Indeed, there could be a view that Vulkan having to be 'taken under wing' by the Emperor represents a 'failing' almost in the manner of Lorgar and Magnus - the Emperor doesn't need enlightened protectors, he needs fierce superhuman psychically robust intergalactic warlords. Vulkan's might have been being censured in a... 'nice' way...)
I digress. Basically, has anyone collated what we know in the modern Heresy about when Primarchs took hold of their Legions and how long they'd been active/busy before discovery by the Emperor?
The above mentions surrounding Perturabo and Vulkan really piqued my interest.
|Posted by: Imperial herald May 6 2015, 10:05 AM|
| The primarch discovery order http://battlebunnies.blogspot.com.au/2015/02/great-crusade-primarch-discovery-and.html
|Posted by: LaurieGoulding May 6 2015, 01:20 PM|
Their first timeline entry has a mistake on it. I stopped reading at that point...
|Posted by: Imperial herald May 7 2015, 06:26 AM|
What was the mistake ?
|Posted by: LaurieGoulding May 7 2015, 09:18 AM|
|The Great Crusade began in 798.M30|
|Posted by: Imperial herald May 7 2015, 09:42 AM|
I did not know that myself
|Posted by: LaurieGoulding May 7 2015, 11:00 AM|
| 'Horus Rising' - states 203rd year of the Great Crusade. Ullanor is stated as a year earlier.
'HH2: Massacre' - states Ullanor is 000.M31
This is my whole job.