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Title: Primarch Discovery Order
Description: Known information


Marcoos - January 13, 2013 10:10 PM (GMT)
I know there was a thread covering this on the old forum, and I thought it would be useful to have this consolidated into one post.

Primarch Discovery Order Information

- All 20 Primarchs were recovered throughout the course of the Great Crusade.
- Horus was the first Primarch discovered (various sources, dating back throughout the history of writing on the Heresy).
- Rogal Dorn was discovered 7th (source The Lightning Tower short story).
- Alpharius was the last Primarch discovered (source Index Astertes: Alpha Legion).

I Legion Astartes ’Dark Angels’ – Lion El’Jonson

- After Magnus, Jaghatai Khan and Sanguinius – according to A Thousand Sons, these 3 Primarchs founded the Librarian order, and then introduced Librarians into other legions. In Descent of Angels, one of the Astartes who lands on Caliban (original home world of the Dark Angels) was a Librarian. Therefore the Lion must have be found after these three.
- Before Mortarion – According to the short story, The Lion from The Primarchs anthology, Lion El’Jonson fought alongside the ‘newly renamed Death Guard’ legion during the Great Crusade. The legion was only renamed as the Death Guard upon being reunited with Mortarion.

II Legion Astartes - Unknown

III Legion Astartes ’The Emperor’s Children’ – Fulgrim

- Before Konrad Curze – Fulgrim mentored Curze when he was first recovered (Index Astartes: Night Lords)
- Before Peturabo – in Angel Exterminatus there’s a scene where Peturabo reminisces about pledging his fealty to the Emperor. It records that Fulgrim had done this ‘years before’.

IV Legion Astartes ‘Iron Warriors’ – Peturabo

- After Fulgrim (see above) and Magnus – during the same scene mentioned above from Angel Exterminatus, Magnus is also discussed.
- Before Angron – in the excellent short story After Desh’ea (from Tales of Heresy), Kharn (a World Eater’s captain) is talking to Angron immediately after the finding of Angron, and he explains seeing the change in the Iron Warriors upon the discovery of their Primarch.

V Legion Astartes ‘White Scars’ – Jaghatai Khan

- Before Lion El’Jonson – see above.

VI Legion Astartes ’Space Wolves’ – Leman Russ

Nothing known.

VII Legion Astartes ‘Imperial Fists’ – Rogal Dorn

- Before Konrad Curze – the short story Prince of Crows details the first meeting between the Emperor and Curze at which there are 4 Primarchs present, one of whom is Rogal Dorn.

VIII Legion Astartes ‘Night Lords’ - Konrad Curze

- After Rogal Dorn, Ferrus Manus, Lorgar and Fulgrim – from the aforementioned Prince of Crows short story.

IX Legion Astartes ‘Blood Angels’ – Sanguinius

- Before Mortarion – there is a passage in Flight of the Eisenstein where Nathaniel Garro (Captain in the Death Guard) recounts the recovery of a number of Primarchs before Mortarion is recovered – Sanguinius is one of these.
- Before Lion El’Jonson – see above.
- Before Angron – from the Forge World Betrayal sourcebook, it notes a comment made by Sanguinius about the Warhounds legion, which is the name of the World Eaters legion prior to the recovery of Angron.

X Legion Astartes ‘Iron Hands’ - Ferrus Manus

- Before Mortarion – the same information in Flight of the Eisenstein listed above (under Sanguinius) mentions Ferrus.
- Before Curze – see above.

XI Legion Astartes – Unknown

XII Legion Astartes ‘World Eaters’ – Angron

- After Peturabo and Vulkan – detailed by World Eater’s Captain Kharn in After Desh’ea.
- After Sanguinius – see above.

XIII Legion Astartes ‘Ultramarines’ – Roboute Guilliman

- Before Mortarion – the same information in Flight of the Eisenstein listed above (under Sanguinius) mentions Guilliman.

XIV Legion Astartes ‘Death Guard’ – Mortarion

- After Sanguinius, Ferrus, Guilliman and Magnus – detailed in Flight of the Eisenstein.

XV Legion Astartes ‘Thousand Sons’ – Magnus

- Before Lorgar – Magnus is with the Emperor when Lorgar is first discovered.
- Before Mortarion – see above.
- Before Peturabo – see above.
- Before Lion – see above.
- After Mortarion, Corax and Rogal Dorn – Ahriman, First Captain of the Thousand Sons relays information about how these 3 Primarchs were against the use of sorcery by the legion prior to the recovery of Magnus.

XVI Legion Astartes ‘Luna Wolves’/'Sons of Horus’ – Horus

Nothing known.

XVII Legion Astartes ‘Word Bearers’ – Lorgar

- After Magnus – see above.
- Before Curze – see above.

XVIII Legion Astartes ‘Salamanders’ – Vulkan

- Before Angron – see above.

XIX Legion Astartes ‘Raven Guard’ – Corax

- Before Magnus – see above.

XX Legion Astartes - ’Alpha Legion’ – Alpharius

Nothing known.

There are also references within the series to the number of years that certain Primarchs have taken part in the Great Crusade (the period covering the conquest of the Galaxy by the Emperor’s armies, and during which the Primarchs were rediscovered). It also seems to me that in the early days of the series, the authors treated the length of the crusade fairly loosely, something which appears to have tightened up more recently (Brotherhood of the Storm and Angel Exterminatus are both good examples of this).

Ferrus Manus – approximately 200 years.
Fulgrim – approximately 160 years (based on when his flagship was built – Fulgrim).
Peturabo – 150 years (Angel Exterminatus).
The Khan – 120 years (Brotherhood of the Storm).

According to Promethean Sun, Vulkan is found after ‘several’ of his brothers.
According to Deliverance Lost, ‘most’ of Corax’s brothers have already been found.

The Contradictions
- Anyone paying attention to the details above will have noticed the contradiction within the discovery order. Magnus is found before Mortarion (according to Flight of the Eisenstein), but after him (according to A Thousand Sons).
- according to A Thousand Sons, Mortarion is found before Magnus who is before Lion. According to The Lion, Mortarion is after Lion.

If anyone has any mor info, please post it up :D

Malika - January 13, 2013 10:14 PM (GMT)
Wasn't it a bit vague with Corax that the Emperor mentioned 17 of his brothers having been found, upon which Corax asks the Emperor how that could be (meaning the two missing Legions), which is then dismissed by the Emperor?

LaurieGoulding - January 13, 2013 10:29 PM (GMT)
I have a definitive list (with dates) for this. I will check to see if I am allowed to post it in the public domain, as it essentially removes any/all doubt from the order that the primarchs were discovered. :)

Ahriman's Aide - January 13, 2013 10:33 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (LaurieGoulding @ Jan 13 2013, 10:29 PM)
I have a definitive list (with dates) for this. I will check to see if I am allowed to post it in the public domain, as it essentially removes any/all doubt from the order that the primarchs were discovered. :)

You could single handedly fix all our problems forever! I hope the powers that be say yes.

Does that list include II and XI, or will there be a couple of gaps in the list as well?

Algrim Whitefang - January 13, 2013 11:04 PM (GMT)
A definitive list like this would be very helpful, not to mention putting to rest all the debate and conjecture!

Brother Handro - January 14, 2013 01:00 AM (GMT)
Wow a definitive list would be great, not to mention useful for working out fluff for your own characters/armies!


For the record, the Dusk Raiders fought for "more than eight decades" in the Great Crusade until "only a handful [of Primarchs] remained to be discovered" when they were reunited with Mortarion. (HH: Betrayal, p.122).


This tells us most were found well within the first century of the crusade, as you'd have expected. If Magnus was found after Mortarion, well, that's eighty-odd years of random flesh mutation and a tiny Legion size. Nasty! :lol:

Marcoos - January 14, 2013 12:30 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Malika @ Jan 13 2013, 10:14 PM)
Wasn't it a bit vague with Corax that the Emperor mentioned 17 of his brothers having been found, upon which Corax asks the Emperor how that could be (meaning the two missing Legions), which is then dismissed by the Emperor?

That was my reading of it, but Laurie has categorically stated otherwise. In fact thinking about it, I should have Corax as 18th found.

Marcoos - January 14, 2013 12:32 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (LaurieGoulding @ Jan 13 2013, 10:29 PM)
I have a definitive list (with dates) for this. I will check to see if I am allowed to post it in the public domain, as it essentially removes any/all doubt from the order that the primarchs were discovered. :)

That would be awesome if you could!

If not, then confirmation of how the contradictions will be resolved would be great.

Gagoc - January 14, 2013 03:26 PM (GMT)
Stop me if I'm wrong but wasn't Horus the first Primarch found, and wasn't Alpharius the last?

Also Corax being the 18th found doesn't fit, as he is said to be found before Magnus, but he was found before Lorgar, Perturabo, LEJ and possibly Mortarion.
That would mean he could only be the 16th found at the latest.

That's another Inconsistency.
Unless the 17 quoted by the Emperor included those sons he knew of, maybe even was in communication with, but had not yet met in person?
Such has been inferred before.

LaurieGoulding - January 14, 2013 09:59 PM (GMT)
Where does it say that Corax was discovered before Magnus?

IIRC, in the old IA articles (which are no longer strictly canon) it simply says that Dorn and Corax were among the Legions that objected to the Librarius, which was set up by the Thousand Sons, White Scars etc.

Ullis Temeter - January 14, 2013 11:27 PM (GMT)
On some level, might not Magnus have been the first primarch "discovered" by the Emperor? Not in a physical sense, but in terms of Magnus accessing the warp with his mind and communing with the Emperor on Terra. From the Thousand Sons Index Astartes, "It has been suggested that the face-to-face meeting of Emperor and Primarch was a virtual afterthought, their minds having long since found each other across the Warp".

Marcoos - January 14, 2013 11:37 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (LaurieGoulding @ Jan 14 2013, 09:59 PM)
Where does it say that Corax was discovered before Magnus?

IIRC, in the old IA articles (which are no longer strictly canon) it simply says that Dorn and Corax were among the Legions that objected to the Librarius, which was set up by the Thousand Sons, White Scars etc.

No book to hand to 100% confirm this, but from notes and memory there is a section on page 385 of A Thousand Sons which talks about a number of Primarchs objecting to the legion (reference the number of mutations) prior to the legion's reuniting with Magnus. The listed Primarchs are Dorn, Mortarion and Corax.

LaurieGoulding - January 14, 2013 11:48 PM (GMT)
Ah yes. I recall that. The key is in the wording. ;)

Ahriman's Aide - January 14, 2013 11:51 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (LaurieGoulding @ Jan 14 2013, 11:48 PM)
Ah yes. I recall that. The key is in the wording. ;)

So, have you inquired yet as to whether you can reveal the truth to us or not?

HandOfIron - January 16, 2013 11:15 AM (GMT)
Now, Laurie, that would be an incredibly useful list! Looking forward to seeing that.

Marcoos - January 16, 2013 02:53 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (LaurieGoulding @ Jan 14 2013, 11:48 PM)
Ah yes. I recall that. The key is in the wording. ;)

Hi Laurie, I'm genuinely not trying to be obtuse, but I have re-read that section of ATS, and I don't get how it could be read other than Corax (and Dorn & Mortarion) being found before the physical reuniting of the Emperor and Magnus. Not sure if you are referring to the Emperor and Magnus having met psychically already? If not this, could you be more explicit as I'd love to know what I've missed...

Xisor - January 16, 2013 09:30 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (LaurieGoulding @ Jan 13 2013, 10:29 PM)
I have a definitive list (with dates) for this. I will check to see if I am allowed to post it in the public domain, as it essentially removes any/all doubt from the order that the primarchs were discovered. :)

Good gumdrops, Laurie! This is good news indeed.

I wonder, has the question been asked or pondered much as to how long the Primarchs were on their homeworlds prior to discovery?

I ask only as I thought it'd be an interesting bit to stretch and play about with for story purposes. Consider, as a hypothetical example:
- Horus is discovered 25 years after the Primarchs go missing. He's been on Cthonia for twelve years. (Makes him 'twelve years alive*' on discovery.)
- Say Dorn is discovered next, 38 years after the Primarchs go missing. He's been on Inwit for 40 years. (E.g. he emerged 2 years before he was lost on Terra. The warp, eh?)
- Not only that, but when he meets Horus (assuming he ages normally in the Imperium), Horus will only be 25, whereas Dorn will be 40! Unfortunately for Dorn, many of those years have been him in the company of the Emperor gaining insight and tutelage, whilst Dorn has spent much of his time 'Emperoring' Inwit and its surrounds...

You get the idea, I hope. The way the warp works, their ages and relative experience might not quite work out the way one expects. (E.g. if Alpharius is found last but has been alive and kicking around the galaxy 'on his own' [ ;) ] for three centuries anyway, incorporating into the Imperim might leave him roughly on level-pegging with the other Primarchs, despite being ostensibly 'newer', if not actually younger.

By even more hypotheticals, if Vulkan was found one-hundred and fifty years in, but had only been 'out' on Nocturne for fifteen years, he'd be profoundly young and inexperienced in comparison to Horus, even if his innate physical, biological and psychic capacity might be relatively similar (i.e. perhaps they are all 'matured primarchs' when discovered, their life experiences can only really inform their personalities, not their respective abilities?).

Key thought: The warp's funny, not everyone emerges at the same time**, how long did each spend on their homeworld prior to being found?

* Alive as in 'out of the pod and mixing with humans'. We can ignore how long they spent in the warp as it could be anything between eternity, no time at all and Stilton.
** Of course, the warp being funny as it is, their arrival on each of their home planets might well be one of the few all-at-once events, perhaps arriving five minutes before the left Terra!

Markus Krell - January 16, 2013 09:45 PM (GMT)
I like your thinking, but I doubt we'll ever know.

There's so much we'd like to know; like the real reasons why the traitors really betrayed - apart from Alpharius & Magnus... and possibly Angron... and Fulgrim... and Night Haunter... and Lorgar. What I really mean is, why did Perturabo and Mortarion turned traitor?!! :D

Best thing is, make it up yourselve!!

HandOfIron - January 17, 2013 11:56 AM (GMT)
It would be nice to know, but there's only so much we should know before the mystery is kinda taken away. I really would like to know the order of discovery, but with other details kept vague as such. We just need to keep giving Laurie grief till he stumps up the goods!

Ullis Temeter - January 24, 2013 12:19 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (LaurieGoulding @ Jan 13 2013, 10:29 PM)
I have a definitive list (with dates) for this. I will check to see if I am allowed to post it in the public domain, as it essentially removes any/all doubt from the order that the primarchs were discovered. :)

*cough* So... :ph43r:

Ahriman's Aide - January 24, 2013 12:32 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Ullis Temeter @ Jan 24 2013, 12:19 AM)
QUOTE (LaurieGoulding @ Jan 13 2013, 10:29 PM)
I have a definitive list (with dates) for this. I will check to see if I am allowed to post it in the public domain, as it essentially removes any/all doubt from the order that the primarchs were discovered.  :)

*cough* So... :ph43r:

Yes Laurie, we've been waiting here with baited breath...

Gagoc - January 24, 2013 11:24 AM (GMT)
There's a good chance that Laurie can't let us know the full list.
But maybe he can at least drop some heavy hints, possibly a few choice details?
I'd be satisfied with that.

LaurieGoulding - January 24, 2013 12:20 PM (GMT)
I'm pretty sure I can let you know the order, but not the dates...

Markus Krell - January 24, 2013 12:28 PM (GMT)
The order is fine... pleeeeeeeeeeeeeease!!

LaurieGoulding - January 24, 2013 12:32 PM (GMT)
Here you go, straight from the horse's mouth:

Horus
Leman Russ
[DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS]
Ferrus Manus
Fulgrim
Vulkan
Rogal Dorn
Roboute Guilliman
Magnus the Red
Sanguinius
Lion El'Jonson
Perturabo
Mortarion
Lorgar
Jaghatai Khan
Konrad Curze
Angron
Corax
[DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS]
Alpharius


Please bear in mind that there is a difference between a primarch being found, and a primarch taking command of their Legion. ;)

Ahriman's Aide - January 24, 2013 12:42 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (LaurieGoulding @ Jan 24 2013, 12:32 PM)
Here you go, straight from the horse's mouth:

Horus
Leman Russ
[DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS]
Ferrus Manus
Fulgrim
Vulkan
Rogal Dorn
Roboute Guilliman
Magnus the Red
Sanguinius
Lion El'Jonson
Perturabo
Mortarion
Lorgar
Jaghatai Khan
Konrad Curze
Angron
Corax
[DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS]
Alpharius


Please bear in mind that there is a difference between a primarch being found, and a primarch taking command of their Legion. ;)

Now that is interesting. I thought both the lost Primarchs were purged before Corax was recovered (According to Deliverance Lost).

Aurelian - January 24, 2013 12:46 PM (GMT)
Wow, that is very interesting indeed! I'd of never guessed that Russ would of been the 2nd Primarch to be found. However, the more I think about it the more it fits in with his character. It help to explain somewhat Russ's unflinching loyalty to the Big E if he was found early on in the Crusade.

Marcoos - January 24, 2013 12:54 PM (GMT)
Hi Laurie,

Firstly, thanks for posting this up! It's great to have a definitive list.

Three questions if I may?

1. Is this the discovery order list, or the placed in command list? (I assume the former but...)

2. Is there an explanation to some of the apparent contradictions?

3. As you have posted on here, are we oay to discuss this with a wider audience, or is a TFE resource only?

LaurieGoulding - January 24, 2013 01:07 PM (GMT)
It's not really open for discussion, but feel free to post it around wherever. This is just the list that all future GW stuff is likely to be based on, and we've gone right up to the most recent novels in creating this.

(Please bear in mind that we will fix two really minor details at the next printing of one of the novels.)

Markus Krell - January 24, 2013 01:07 PM (GMT)
Thank you!! :D

Does that mean that the Emperor's Children didn't recover their loses after the 'accident' until much later in the Great Crusade?

Interesting... hmmm, this raises lots of questions :) . I bet the loss of the 3rd Primarch was a big deal as he would have been established, unlike the 19th one.

It also makes the whole Fulgrim/Ferrus Manus [spolier] more poignant as they may well have known one another for so long.

Sheds some light on what could have happend to the 19th Primarch, as he was found second-to-last. Corruption? Goes against the Emperor's word?

LaurieGoulding - January 24, 2013 01:09 PM (GMT)
Hence why you should all be buying the hardbacks - they are canon-flawless. ;)

Brother Handro - January 24, 2013 01:22 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Markus Krell @ Jan 24 2013, 01:07 PM)

Interesting... hmmm, this raises lots of questions  :) . I bet  the loss of the 3rd Primarch was a big deal as he would have been established, unlike the 19th one.



Not necessarily; the 3rd Primarch may not have had time be be really established, depending on the scale of his 'problems', (which I'm assuming would be pretty big, if no one in the entire universe is allowed to know about him!), and so he may have been 'dealt with' quickly once it had been decided to get rid of him.

Also note that Russ, 'the executioner', was found before him, meaning he would have been able to go chop-chop when the time was right.

This assumes of course that it was the 3rd Primarch's Legion that was destroyed by Russ, and not merely assimilated (possibly) by the Ultramarines.

It's all rumour and speculation to anyone but the Emperor and his inner circle...





Thanks for this list Laurie, that's really interesting, and no doubt will be quite helpful to people brewing their fluff in the future!



Marcoos - January 24, 2013 01:59 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (LaurieGoulding @ Jan 24 2013, 01:07 PM)
It's not really open for discussion, but feel free to post it around wherever. This is just the list that all future GW stuff is likely to be based on, and we've gone right up to the most recent novels in creating this.

(Please bear in mind that we will fix two really minor details at the next printing of one of the novels.)

Cool thank you!

Xisor - January 24, 2013 05:44 PM (GMT)
Handro, from the same point, number two might have fought for decades and been well established. Or Russ killed him early on in an attempt to vie for power before being 'house trained' by the Emperor, 'executing' little brother to show Russ can be trusted.

Much depth here. Had this been known to McNeill on writing "Fulgrim" I'd imagine much more'd have been made of Ferrus & Prince Fulgy (Fabulous he ... *sings*) respective seniority and the depth of that bond compared to their brothers.

Hopefully this'll spark authors' minds in this respect. A bit more 'natural context'.

Sinzaren - January 24, 2013 06:03 PM (GMT)
Thanks for the list Laurie, really interesting to see. A few surprises to what I had in mind. I always thought Dorn and Magnus were in the first few found.

Marcoos - January 24, 2013 07:11 PM (GMT)
Dorn is one of the few known for a fact in a specific place. The Lightning Tower states he was the 7th one to be found.

Biggest surprise to me was Sanguinius. I always pictured him as one of the first, especially given his bond with Horus.

Having said that, we know Angron has been around for 100 years, so that means at least the first 17 were discovered within the first 100 years - so one every 6 years. Plenty of times for bonds to be forged and rivalries created!

Ullis Temeter - January 24, 2013 07:31 PM (GMT)
Obliged for the list, sir. Intriguing possibilities to say the least. I'm almost thinking the first "lost" Primarch might have been in action for a while possibly. If you consider Dorn knew of both of them and the rumor involving them being blended into the Ultras, you have quite a few Primarchs involved found in between Guilliman and the "lost" Primarch. I'd almost say more questions are raised with the list in hand than existed before! Nice work. Keep us chomping at the bit for more! :lol:

Gagoc - January 24, 2013 08:15 PM (GMT)
So, if that's the order the Primarchs were found in could the order they took command of their respective legions be different?

Malika - January 24, 2013 08:31 PM (GMT)
There's one thing I don't get... Weren't the White Scars around before the Dark Angels? Unless there is a major gap of time between the Dark Angels being reunited with the Emperor and the Dark Angels going on campaign together with the White Scars.

That would make more sense, since it would allow the Dark Angels to have fought more of them, and make the references made in Grey Angel by Luther make sense. :)

Rider - January 24, 2013 08:46 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (LaurieGoulding @ Jan 24 2013, 01:09 PM)
Hence why you should all be buying the hardbacks - they are canon-flawless. ;)

I take it this means that the hardback reprints are re-edited?

The number of simple errors, nevermind canon issues, that have been in them has always irked... lol.

On saying that it's never stopped them being a good read, some more than others.

I am surprised that the 19th primarch discovered was one of the [deleted] pair. I t always seemed to come across as something that had happened long ago, way way back in the crusade.




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