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Title: how do you breed a Siamese Sable


Hidden Acres Rabbitry - March 29, 2006 03:24 AM (GMT)
I have been looking for a Siamese Sable for ever know .. and woundering how would you breed one ? What colours would you need to breed one ?
If anyone know please let me know

Kayla

kismet - March 29, 2006 03:37 AM (GMT)
Siamese sable: aaB_cchl_D_E_

A siamese sable is like a black with the shaded gene...a sable point is like a tort with the shaded gene. So since you already have a sable point, I would breed the sable point to something self and NOT non extension. So that pretty much leaves you with black, blue, etc. Make sure it doesn't carry non extension, or try to get one that doesn't at least (so not a lot of tort, orange, sable point, etc in the pedigree).

That's how you'd get the COLOR anyway, can't promise the color would be good - Vicki or someone that does shadeds will have to help you there lol.

Hidden Acres Rabbitry - March 29, 2006 03:51 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (kismet @ Mar 28 2006, 10:37 PM)
Siamese sable: aaB_cchl_D_E_

A siamese sable is like a black with the shaded gene...a sable point is like a tort with the shaded gene. So since you already have a sable point, I would breed the sable point to something self and NOT non extension. So that pretty much leaves you with black, blue, etc. Make sure it doesn't carry non extension, or try to get one that doesn't at least (so not a lot of tort, orange, sable point, etc in the pedigree).

That's how you'd get the COLOR anyway, can't promise the color would be good - Vicki or someone that does shadeds will have to help you there lol.

WOuld you go for a soild BLue tort ?

kismet - March 29, 2006 03:55 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Hidden Acres Rabbitry @ Mar 28 2006, 10:51 PM)
QUOTE (kismet @ Mar 28 2006, 10:37 PM)
Siamese sable: aaB_cchl_D_E_

A siamese sable is like a black with the shaded gene...a sable point is like a tort with the shaded gene. So since you already have a sable point, I would breed the sable point to something self and NOT non extension. So that pretty much leaves you with black, blue, etc. Make sure it doesn't carry non extension, or try to get one that doesn't at least (so not a lot of tort, orange, sable point, etc in the pedigree).

That's how you'd get the COLOR anyway, can't promise the color would be good - Vicki or someone that does shadeds will have to help you there lol.

WOuld you go for a soild BLue tort ?

Breed a blue tort to get a siamese sable? No, you'd just get sable points.

Oh DUH I'm so stupid, forgot to mention the black has to carry shaded. :rolleyes: Duhhhh, I was gonna get to that, promise. lol

So any smoke pearl, siamese sable, sable point, etc. in the background means they could carry shaded and you have a chance...

You could also breed a REW or Himmy of course, but Himmys are hard to find in Fuzzies (harder than sables, at least around here) and the REW you'd have to make sure wasn't non extension underneath. But it wouldn't have to carry shaded.

Hillside - March 29, 2006 04:03 AM (GMT)
I have found that most siamese sables have to actually come out of good lines with good modifiers as well as genetics. I have does from this one line that throw excellent colored shadeds while this one buck from a different line throws ugly brown seals.

The best way to do that is breed smokes, sables, and himmies/pointed whites together. You can get a sable from a sable point and a smoke, you can get a sable from a sable point and a himi. Generally you want to stay away from Sable Point, tort, blue tort, orange, fawn, etc. because sometimes when a sable carries the non-extension gene, they tend to be very blotchy and that is something shadeds don't need in the gene pool. :)

Falls-Acre - March 29, 2006 05:08 AM (GMT)
I have also found that while using REW is a fast way to isolate out the sable gene, you won't get the proper coloring. A sable that is chlc is going to appear to be a dark sable though not quite dark enough to pass for seal. Generally, even if they start out looking like nice sables, they will darken up considerably as they mature. Here's a pic of a dark sable:

user posted image

This rabbit will produce only more dark sables and whites when bred to a white. To get the proper sable shading on the body, they should ideally be chlch which aids in restricting the darker shading color to the extremities as you would see on a nice sable or pointed/cal/himi. Here's a nice sable:

user posted image

Finally, simply for comparison's sake, this is an actual seal, please notice how much darker than dark sable the seal really is. I'm adding a black too for comparison to the seal. There really is a significant difference in all tese varieties.

Seal:
user posted image

Black:
user posted image

Hillside - March 29, 2006 05:20 AM (GMT)
I believe a rabbit doesn't have to be "cchlch" to have correct shading. One of my best does carries REW ("c") and she throws the best colored shadeds, even when bred to a dark sable marten shown below.

Dark Sable Marten (cchlc):
user posted image


Siamese Sable (cchlc):
user posted image


I believe modifiers have a lot to do with it.

Falls-Acre - March 29, 2006 11:47 AM (GMT)
We'll find out soon here!! LOL Because I now have a whole nest of sables that are going to be chlch and chlc, but I won't know which until they start getting fur. Mom is chlch and dad is a rew (cc). I'm not saying modifiers don't play their part, because I know they do. Just that genes tend to play a larger initial role, and modifiers are subtle. BTW, modifiers are still genes, which I'm sure you are aware, just that they tend to have more of a causal effect where other genes are already present. We call them modifiers because they change the appearance of already present genes to alter the shade. lol So yeah, they can play a big part, just that the simple genetics can *also* be used to get to the goals. ;)

Inceidentally, I've never thrown a nice sable when using rew to get it. But I got to thinking that maybe there is a breed difference. I'm working in Rex and every Rex breeder with whom I've spoken agrees that the good sables have to have cal (ch) in them for proper shading. Maybe the Rex just don't have the right modifiers. Perhaps Nethies, being more widely bred, have many more of the good modifiers. I would say that Hollands also have them, since getting good sables is not difficult in them either. Hmmm

Hillside - March 29, 2006 08:12 PM (GMT)
I bet breed has a lot to do with it, as almost all of my shadeds carry "c" instead of "ch". I do have a Himi that I bred to a dark sable marten like shown above, so we will see how that littler comes out too.

Keepee - March 29, 2006 09:29 PM (GMT)
That's a purty ND!!

I'm enjoying the pictures and comments, I'm trying to learn about the genetics and this helps a lot, hehe.

legendcowgirl - April 16, 2006 03:52 AM (GMT)
I think Sable coloring tends to vary with each breed. One of my main colors in the Woolies is Siamese Sable and I also have quite a few Pointed Whites so naturally I breed the 2 colors together a lot. Recently I had a litter out of a nicely colored Siamese Sable doe(out of a Seal X Black Pointed White) and a lightly marked(not too light but certainly not very black) Black Pointed buck. From that litter I got a Sable doe that is a bit darker but I`ve found most of my sable babies tend to be that way and then may lighten up with age, a Blue Pointed buck and a REW buck. I have gotten Siamese Sable by breeding a Blue buck(out of a Smoke Pearl X Blue Tort) to a Black Pointed White doe but as Lauren said I`m sure Pointed White is pretty rare in Fuzzies. I've always heard that breeding Pointed White X Shadeds produces nicer shadeds but I`m not quite sure if it`s true or not. I know some people don`t like Seals so they tend to avoid breeding Shaded X Shaded. :P




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