View Full Version: Vienna markings?

Rabbit Habbit Forums > Genetics & Colors > Vienna markings?


Title: Vienna markings?


victorialicious7 - May 29, 2011 04:31 PM (GMT)
So I saw the post started by Disney, but I did not want to obstruct her post and go off topic. I was just curious as how it is possible to get a vienna marked rabbit? Is it a form of bad breeding if a rabbit has vienna markings or at least looked upon badly? When it comes to mini rex rabbits, how can you get vienna marked rabbits? Must you cross with other breeds? Any and all info would be great.

sidd-says-gimme - May 29, 2011 04:32 PM (GMT)
When you breed a BEW (blue eyed white) rabbit to a normal colored rabbit, you'll get VMs. So it's nothing to do with breeds, just from the BEW gene. :) Sometimes they can hide the gene as well.

victorialicious7 - May 29, 2011 05:20 PM (GMT)
Is it possible to do this with larger breeds, such as new zealands or flemish giants?

And by normal colored what exactly does that include/exclude? I also read that for the first litter, they will produced colored rabbits for the first generation. What does this mean?

victorialicious7 - May 29, 2011 05:46 PM (GMT)
Oh also, I have another question. Does it matter whether the father would be BEW or the mother? Who will be transferring the colors? Is it difficult to find BEW's (specifically mini rex, although I'm willing to pick one up out of state, just worried about transport stress)?

The reason I am asking is this. My mini rex/mini rex w/ possibly dwarf cross just had babies, 3 broken b/w, 1 broken blue/white, 1 otter, 3 blacks. One of these I will be giving to my friend, who in turn will breed in the future. I dont have the room for too many rabbits, but I am considering convincing her to get a fawn or now, a BEW, depending on what sex she gets (I'm assuming doe?). If she gets a male that is BEW OR fawn, I will probably "borrow" him to breed to my doe since she's such a good mother. She is broken black.

What color possibilities could I get from my doe with a BEW and with a fawn?

sidd-says-gimme - May 29, 2011 06:07 PM (GMT)
I meant non-BEW. ;)

Some breeds don't come in BEW (although there may be a few people working on developing it). I don't think either of those breeds accept BEW. If someone wanted to develop them they would find a BEW rabbit that is as similar as possible to their breed and work on breeding it into current stock, I would guess.

I thought that if you bred BEW to non BEW/carrier that you would end up with either all carriers or VM, but I've never dealt with it myself so haven't researched much. I'm sure someone else can clear that up for you. I think a colored rabbit would mean not BEW.

No, I don't believe it matters whether the mother or father is the BEW. BEWs are pretty rare but I'm not sure about in mini rex. Depends on your location. I would do some research and ask around.



Disney - May 29, 2011 07:22 PM (GMT)
Hi Victoria

Ehm how do i explain this properly..

A Vienna marked is the same as a Vienna carrier.
A rabbit is either:
- non-vienna =
normal colored.

- Vienna marked/carrier = whitecolored with often blue eys or odd-eyed.
They generally have a dutch-type marking.
The white in the fur can be minimal where there's only white on the nose.
When maximal, the rabbit is mostly white colored with spread splots of a color.
Imagine a dutch with cow-like white splots on the backside of the body.
And rarely VM are broken colored.

- Bew = fullwhite with blue eyes

I don't know about the rabbits in the USA.
But here in holland, Vienna Marked rabbits are quite common.
Mostly medium sized rabbits, like in pet shops etc.

But i've never seen a large size VM rabbit.
Flemish Giant are usually self colored like chestnut, albino or blue..
Some breeds do have Bew, but i'm not sure wich ones.
I believe i've seen pics of Bew rexes, so it could be possible to find one.

When breeding a VM (Vv) to a normal (VV).
You'll get:
- 50% VV = normal colored
- 50% Vv = vienna marked

When breeding VM (Vv) to VM (Vv)
You'll get:
- 25% VV = normal colored
- 50% Vv = vienna marked
- 25% vv = bew

When breeding VM (Vv) to Bew (vv)
You'll get:
- 50% Vv = vienna marked
- 50% vv = bew

I got mine Bew from a lady who breeds randomly.
She has a beautiful blue VM buck.
She bred him to several does, some VM and some normal.
She got VM kits in almost every litter, except for a black doe.
And luckily for me. There was 1 Bew and i got her.

I also got a VM from a another doe.
So they are halfsiblings, same father, different mother.
1 is Bew and 1 is VM and i'm planning on breeding them.

I'll post some pics

This is my Bew, both parents are VM
user posted image
user posted image

The mother, a VM. she is more white than colored.
user posted image
user posted image

The father, a VM with dutch-type markings.
user posted image

This is my VM, she has the same above father as the Bew (i'm not a girl as you can see :P)
user posted image
user posted image
user posted image

This is her mother, she is harlequin and probably a VM too hence the white blaze on her head. She had 3 kits and all were VM. No normal or bew so i'm not sure about her.
user posted image

I'll post more pics after this.

Disney - May 29, 2011 07:37 PM (GMT)
3 Vienna Marked and 1 Bew
user posted image

A blue VM with typical markings
user posted image

A VM litter, the ones with white are VM, the ones with white are obvious, the others idk. could be vm or normal
user posted image

Bew
user posted image

VM doe with all bew kits
user posted image

Bew and VM siblings
user posted image

VM with cow-like markings
user posted image

VM
user posted image

Bew
user posted image

VM
user posted image

This is exactly why i love Vienna marked and Bew :wub:

victorialicious7 - May 29, 2011 07:59 PM (GMT)
wow that explained SO much! What breed are yours? I am actually going to speak to my friend about this because she will be breeding the rabbit that I give to her, which is a mini rex/mini rex dwarf cross (Again, I'm assuming about the dwarf one.. he is smaller, but seems to have the fur of a mini rex.) Plus, there aren't many of these rabbits around here, or the larger breeds, which is why I'm also considering starting meat rabbits once we set up our chicken coop (although its not on our land so it cant be a full breeding operation).

I'm thinking that if its possible, I will attempt to get a BEW buck just because then I can breed him to my broken black mini rex doe. If anything, maybe my friend can get another doe (since she has her own land) in a fawn color which would be very beautiful in my opinion, too bad I dont have the room for it :(

PS - wow, first time I've seen a male breeding rabbits so thoroughly :P 10 bonus points for being awesome!

sidd-says-gimme - May 29, 2011 08:07 PM (GMT)
But can't they carry but hide the BEW gene? That's what I meant by a carrier as I didn't want to seem too confusing. I had a litter from two non-vienna marked rabbits (I looked them over everywhere) and got two VM babies in the litter. One with a white nose and one with a blaze and some on the body.

By the way, they are very cute. :wub:

Disney - May 29, 2011 08:32 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (sidd-says-gimme @ May 29 2011, 03:07 PM)
But can't they carry but hide the BEW gene? That's what I meant by a carrier as I didn't want to seem too confusing. I had a litter from two non-vienna marked rabbits (I looked them over everywhere) and got two VM babies in the litter. One with a white nose and one with a blaze and some on the body.

By the way, they are very cute. :wub:

Yes i believe they can hide and carry Vienna at the same time.
Some VM don't show any white so they are called Vienna Carriers like yours.
They might look normal but still carry the gene.
Although i've never seen ones like that.

sidd-says-gimme - May 29, 2011 08:48 PM (GMT)
Alright, just being sure as I haven't had much experience with the gene. I thought by your post that you were saying that they can't carry it if there's no VM so I was a little confused.

Very good info, was trying to find some but with a simple search it wouldn't give me anything good.

victorialicious7 - May 29, 2011 08:52 PM (GMT)
im not sure what breed your rabbits are, as this wasnt specified, but would it be a good idea to cross a mini rex with a lionhead that was BEW (doe)? there is one for sale in my area, and he is one of the only BEW rabbits i've seen as of yet that is also for sale. Would this be a good idea or would they just turn out to not be appealing at all?

sidd-says-gimme - May 29, 2011 08:57 PM (GMT)
If you're just going to sell them as pets and or want some VMs, you could give it a try. But if you're looking to keep some for further breeding, I'm not sure if introducing the mane gene to your MR would be the best idea.

Disney - May 29, 2011 09:20 PM (GMT)
^ It wouldn't be the best idea indeed.
I don't know what the outcome would be.
But if that's the closest best what you can find, then i would go for it.
You can select for the coloration first and later you can focus on hair-type and/or bodyshape.
You may get something beautiful from it.

Falls-Acre - May 29, 2011 09:47 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
When it comes to mini rex rabbits, how can you get vienna marked rabbits? Must you cross with other breeds?


Yes. Blue-eyed white (BEW) is a recognized variety of MR. The BE gene is the vienna gene. The heterozygote of the vienna gene will give you VM's & VC's. VM's usually have the blue eyes (or marbled) along with the interesting and varied color pattern. You get these anytime you cross a vienna (BEW) to a non-vienna. :)

Incidentally, while genetically a VC and a VM are the same, phenotypically (the way it looks), they can be different. VM is a very clearly marked rabbit, whereas a VC might be out of BEW and show no outward signs at all. I know because I've had a VC, the only way to know (other than look at the pedigree) was that she had a small portion of 1 eye that had a light blue color. Very easily missed if not specifically looking for it.

victorialicious7 - May 30, 2011 12:54 AM (GMT)
Thanks for all of the information! I'm a little confused, as its a lot to take in when new to genetics, but when a VM is produce, or any of the children, do they all have blue eyes? Or are those VM, and ones w/o blue eyes are carriers?

Also somewhat specific to disney/not entirely - how would I go about breeding a VM rabbit to produce very obscure coloring, something that is not very common? Whether its a tricolor, or a fawn/orange and white almost dutch marked rabbit, it doesnt matter. Tips!

Disney - June 2, 2011 04:55 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (victorialicious7 @ May 29 2011, 07:54 PM)
Also somewhat specific to disney/not entirely - how would I go about breeding a VM rabbit to produce very obscure coloring, something that is not very common? Whether its a tricolor, or a fawn/orange and white almost dutch marked rabbit, it doesnt matter. Tips!

Do you mean like a odd colored VM?

Generally VM's are whites with marked colors on them.
Normally they have a dutch type of marking.
And some are heavily marked with less white on them (small white blaze/feet/nose etc.)
And some are less marked and show more white on their body, like this.
user posted image
They can be broken too.

Notice the difference in the markings of the front row VM's.
A normal marked, heavily marked and a less marked.
And 2 Bew's in the background.
user posted image

These are all littermates by the way.
So you can get a variety of color suprises with a VM x VM cross..

Both parents are VM.
user posted image

Oh and btw i found a Bew Rex in my area..
Is this something you are looking for or trying to get?
user posted image

victorialicious7 - June 2, 2011 05:22 PM (GMT)
that really helps! do VM always have blue eyes or have some tint of blue in them?

As for the mini rex, that's exactly what I am looking for. I have two and I'd rather keep them the same breed than mix too much. I luckily found some about an hour away from where I live, just waiting to hopefully get a response from the seller.

Disney - June 2, 2011 05:40 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (victorialicious7 @ Jun 2 2011, 12:22 PM)
that really helps! do VM always have blue eyes or have some tint of blue in them?

As for the mini rex, that's exactly what I am looking for. I have two and I'd rather keep them the same breed than mix too much. I luckily found some about an hour away from where I live, just waiting to hopefully get a response from the seller.

They are not always blue eyed, they can be gray or brown too. Bi-eyed aswell, where a part is brown and a part blue, or brown with a small blue dot.

user posted image

mich - July 4, 2011 09:34 AM (GMT)
Hiya!

I hope it is ok to add to this thread, rather than start another one!

I have a new little bun! She has come from a mating of two rabbits that look like well marked dutch and display nothing in the way of blue eyes, however I swear she has to be a Vm. There are a lot of these popping up in dutch litters here in Australia, some breeders think it has to do with mixing the tri dutch and standard dutch, but I think someone has done some BEW dabbling!

What do you think?

user posted image

user posted image

Sometimes they have even crazier stripes on their butts.

How could I prove whether she is a VM or dutch or actually a bit of both? (Given I have only her plus I have some dutch cross, but I have no purebred dutch).

The breeders here believe that they get the best marked dutch in litters that also have some of these crazy markings.

In this one's litter there was apparently one that looked almost like a hotot. I wonder if there is some broken in the mix too!

Shady - July 4, 2011 07:40 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (mich @ Jul 4 2011, 04:34 AM)
Hiya!

I hope it is ok to add to this thread, rather than start another one!

I have a new little bun! She has come from a mating of two rabbits that look like well marked dutch and display nothing in the way of blue eyes, however I swear she has to be a Vm. There are a lot of these popping up in dutch litters here in Australia, some breeders think it has to do with mixing the tri dutch and standard dutch, but I think someone has done some BEW dabbling!

What do you think?

user posted image

user posted image

Sometimes they have even crazier stripes on their butts.

How could I prove whether she is a VM or dutch or actually a bit of both? (Given I have only her plus I have some dutch cross, but I have no purebred dutch).

The breeders here believe that they get the best marked dutch in litters that also have some of these crazy markings.

In this one's litter there was apparently one that looked almost like a hotot. I wonder if there is some broken in the mix too!

Sorry to tell you but that is not a dutch at all, she is a Vm 100% because of the blue eyes and the way her body markings are.
im not a really good person when it comes to dutch type but i had some when i was younger but it do look like she may have dutch in her for sure but not all the way.
So someone had to breed BEW/Vm into the dutch line some where. Hope this helps

mich - July 5, 2011 09:00 AM (GMT)
Here are pics of the parents - perfectly good looking dutch!

user posted image

user posted image

And here are pics of her well marked dutch siblings.

user posted image

user posted image

And pics of her mismarked siblings.

user posted image

user posted image

Sooooo, how do I go about testing what my little one is genetically? Do you still think there is BEW there? How come the parents are such good looking rabbits and two of her siblings also? The chocolate is her dad and he is a champion bun.

Shady - July 5, 2011 06:49 PM (GMT)
:eyebrow: :huh: :confused: WOW!! Im confused myself now, both parents look ok.

What im thinking is who ever you got the parents from or some how, they may have bred the BEW gene into and may have got good looking dutch rabbits but still carry the BEW gene and you didnt know about it and when you bred the 2 parents together they could have both been Vc(non-marked rabbits) and you got the mis-marked rabbits with the blue eyes. Again im confused myself, so maybe someone could help me out here, if im wrong with anything? :help:

OakRidgeRabbits - July 5, 2011 08:04 PM (GMT)
I have heard before that Dutch can throw blue eyes. I don't really know much about it, just that it happens sometimes.

mich - July 5, 2011 08:53 PM (GMT)
Isn't it crazy though that the striped ones always have blue eyes and the well marked ones don't. Really weird! :blink:

I only have the striped girl plus some half dutch. I love puzzles! So I am trying to nut out the dutch genetics. I started with one and bred him to some lop does and not have four crossbreds with varying degrees of pattern. The ultimate aim is to see if I can get the holland lop shape back and then combine the pattern back together to get a dutch marked lop!!!! Then I saw this striped one and I was intrigued so I figured I'd try to understand her too! I know, I'm crazy! :wacko:

So I figure the first step is to mate this striped doe to a plain buck and see what I get. If any of the babies are solid than she isn't dudu and she has something else. I think!!!!!

Amy - July 5, 2011 10:05 PM (GMT)
du(w) causes this sometimes. It's not a true vienna eye, it's a china eye.

mich - July 6, 2011 07:16 AM (GMT)
So she might be duw duw rather than dud duw?

Do you have a pic of a true vienna eye on a vienna mismark? Do you have any other pics of china eyes?

Amy - July 6, 2011 01:34 PM (GMT)
I don't personally but I know folk around here do. It's a bright blue eye for vienna and yours look duller more grayish blue (but not blue-gray).

Here is a vienna eye
user posted image

Disney - July 13, 2011 04:19 PM (GMT)
I agree with Shady.. the parents could be VC without showing any marks and carry the gene.

I don't know about the china gene but the eyes being grey don't prove anything.
The eyes of VM are all unique and somehow different from each other.
Some are blue and some are greyish. It doesn't matter.. they are still VM.

I know litters from VM x Dutch crosses and the kits were either normal dutch marked or vienna marked. I will upload pics of those litters later, im not home right now.

victorialicious7 - July 24, 2011 09:41 PM (GMT)
So for the first time, I saw a VM in the pet store! Was a dutch dwarf cross I believe, but one was black and white with blue eye I believe and the other was white with blue eye.

It looks as if I may be attempting some VM rabbit breeding next year, so what would I get with a broken black/white x with BEW? Will there be the VM dutch markings or just "cow" type spots on them?




* Hosted for free by InvisionFree