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Title: REW x REW = Harli?


yanni - March 16, 2011 11:48 PM (GMT)
I bred a REW doe to a REW buck and got 5 little kits this morning! :banana: However, there are 4 pink little guys and one that looks like it has tiger stripes :shock: How did THAT happen?

whitewolf79 - March 16, 2011 11:51 PM (GMT)
The wonders of genetics! What kind of background do the parents have?

fuzzypatch - March 17, 2011 12:15 AM (GMT)
:lol: Well now we know what the REWs are genetically!!! My REW buck threw Black Otters when he was paired to a Chocolate. REWs always hide what they are genetically. The pedigree gives an idea about what that may be. Welcome to genetics; always keeping you on your feet!

mamabunnie - March 17, 2011 12:19 AM (GMT)
REW X REW = all REW.

However, I have seen pink kits with "stripes" and it's like skin peeling or pee on them... if there actually is a Harlequin, I'd question a potential other sire.

Wooly_Rabbit - March 17, 2011 04:16 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (mamabunnie @ Mar 16 2011, 04:19 PM)
REW X REW = all REW.

However, I have seen pink kits with "stripes" and it's like skin peeling or pee on them... if there actually is a Harlequin, I'd question a potential other sire.

I second this!

If the kit truly does become a Harli, there's no way the REW is the sire...there must have been a time when the doe was exposed to another buck...

It's probably just pee stains though...

Amy - March 17, 2011 05:42 AM (GMT)
I'm guessing stains or bruising during birth or something too.

If it really turns out to be harli, post back =)

lauranmcnay - March 17, 2011 07:18 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (mamabunnie @ Mar 16 2011, 07:19 PM)
REW X REW = all REW.

However, I have seen pink kits with "stripes" and it's like skin peeling or pee on them... if there actually is a Harlequin, I'd question a potential other sire.

I've seen this pretty often too.

yanni - March 17, 2011 03:01 PM (GMT)
I checked on momma and the kits this morning. All 5 are little squirmies! There are 4 pink ones and one stripey one. It has color on the whisker bed and stipes that go around its body from about the middle back. Also, where there is no striping, the color is not the same as the other 4 kits. It's more orangey than pink. I did have other rabbits out on breeding day. The thing is, this couple (let's call them pair A) are mini rex. The father has all REW on his pedigree. Momma's dad was sable point and mom was seal. Could this be the cause of color on the surprise kit? The other pair (let's call them the B pair) is also REW, the whole pedigree. They are mini satin, thus the reason for 2 different bucks. There is no way that Buck B got to Doe A. He was in his cage while that action was taking place.

sidd-says-gimme - March 17, 2011 03:10 PM (GMT)
Is there any way another buck may have bred her through the cage wire? :blink:

If the parents are both REW (which is a pretty obvious colour), like the others said, the babies should all be REW as well. Unless someone else got her without you knowing, I really don't know how you would get anything else but REW.

Do you have any pictures?

Keepee - March 17, 2011 03:14 PM (GMT)
There is no way, ever, no matter what is behind the parents, etc that you can get anything other than REW out of a REW x REW.

So if there is color, you've got a surprise daddy somewhere!

fuzzypatch - March 17, 2011 03:24 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (sidd-says-gimme @ Mar 17 2011, 10:10 AM)
Is there any way another buck may have bred her through the cage wire? :blink:

I've heard of this happening. Another breeder said this happened to her more than once. She has plastic separating them now. She has no idea how it happened, and I don't get it either.

yanni - March 17, 2011 03:49 PM (GMT)
I really don't think another buck could have gotten her through the wire. If you could only see my barn set-up, you'd agree. The does have what my daughter calls "Chica City" They are all along one side of the barn. There is a wooden slat separating each. The bucks are along the other side of the barn in the "Macho Condos" Same set-up as the does. Ruby is still in Chica City because my brood spots are all full right now with other babies and grow outs. Could you guys give me a quick run down on how to get the photos on here? The kits are only on day 2 (early, I know, but this kit is quite obviously different than its littermates) so I will take some photos and try to get them up here. I am not upset about this kit at all. On the contrary, I love a good mystery! I might even learn something new (bonus!) Thanks to you all for trying to solve this!

sidd-says-gimme - March 17, 2011 04:01 PM (GMT)
First I resize the pictures to make sure they're not huge. Then, upload them to a photo sharing site (Photobucket). From there, on the side there's an IMG code, click on the last one (I think?) and it'll copy. Paste it on your post and if all goes well, it'll be there.

Keepee - March 17, 2011 04:18 PM (GMT)
This sounds totally weird, but I know a breeder who houses all the does on one side of the building and the bucks on the other. He had several does that kept coming up pregnant, even though the barn was locked, the cages were latched, no one got in, etc.

One day, he swore up and down that he saw a buck uhm...squirt... his...stuff (that's awkward to try to type out in a nice way...) across the room! Apparently, according to him, the buck would hit the cage and the does would apparently sit in it and voila, sometimes it resulted in babies.

This was a well respected breeder too and no, he wasn't joking at all.

So... maybe it's possible? lol

sidd-says-gimme - March 17, 2011 04:20 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Keepee @ Mar 17 2011, 11:18 AM)
One day, he swore up and down that he saw a buck uhm...squirt... his...stuff (that's awkward to try to type out in a nice way...) across the room! Apparently, according to him, the buck would hit the cage and the does would apparently sit in it and voila, sometimes it resulted in babies.

:blink:

yanni - March 17, 2011 04:41 PM (GMT)
:o Keepee, that Does sound totally weird! And pretty gross! I'm laughing cuz I can just picture my boys doing that! HAhA! I have the fronts of the cages covered with clear plastic to minimized any contagion since January. Just because it's winter, some of the rabbits go to shows and some stay home, I sometimes get new animals so they need to be quarantined, new babies, minimize drafts, etc,etc. The plastic will be coming off shortly since it is starting to warm up here and I want the air circulation to be more now. My barn is an "open" barn. So, although that would make a GREAT story, wouldn't it, I don't honestly think that's what happened.

Amy - March 17, 2011 08:20 PM (GMT)
I'd like pictures please, and the pedigree of colors, you could post it just in order like:
dam: x
gdam: y
gsire: d
ggd
ggs
ggd
ggs
same for the sire side, reading down from the top.


Once the color actually comes in, can know more, I am still not convinced that it is anything more than bruising (which will make darker colors on the skin) it sounds like pee stain might be out though. Like I said, photo would be great.

Yes REW x REW always makes a REW but there are things that can happen.

IIRC the mutation for REW in rabbits is only one amino acid change that codes for tyrosine. It basically messes up tyrosinase enzyme so you can't get any melanin production at all. There have been studies that using functional mouse tyrosinase gene constructs you can re-start the melanin production. (transgenic study from 1996) This begs the question that one of the REW genes by crazy basically-never-happens chance, may have reversed and is functional. However, the chances of this happening are so crazy-to-none, so I only present this as a potential theory, however unlikely.

If it is *actually* a colored animal in the rewxrew litter, I will post back more.

And what I don't want people to think now is "oh see? happened once, genetics don't always tell the truth". No, genetics are *always* right, there are no rule exceptions, if something changed here it is basically the same chance as a new never-before-seen mutation poping up in your litter. Aka basically "0.0000000000...1%" chance. But, things do sometims happen...how else would we have the colors we have?

yanni - March 17, 2011 08:54 PM (GMT)
I was able to put the photo on backyardherds. You can see it under rabbits - birthing, weaning, raising young rabbits.

Dam - seal
Sire - sable point
gdam - sable
gsire - choc otter
gdam - sable point
dsire - sable point
ggd - sable
ggs - sable point
ggd - red
ggs - choc otter
ggd - tort
ggs - sable point
ggd - sable
ggs - sable point

The father's ped is all REW

Amy - March 17, 2011 09:09 PM (GMT)
putting the photo here for others
user posted image

Well ok first of all, how did the REW dam get out of a seal and sable pt? Seal by definition is c(ch1)c(ch1), erm, no REW there....guess darker sia sable?

The dam is (filling in B and DD as most likely):
aaB-ccDD_e

Sire is totally unknown...unless has he sired babies with other animals of yours?

The harlequin isn't coming from theh dam side, the only thing she helped with there is the little "e". I'm guessing that buck is where you are getting the agouti and the jap brindle from.

It would be good to breed him to an orange/fawn/cream to test the jap brindle, and in fact, in this case since it is for test purpose, a tort, to check his agouti-ness as well.


yanni - March 17, 2011 09:17 PM (GMT)
Amy, you are all about it!! I can hardly keep up with you! At least I might learn something out of all this! The only does I have to breed him to are a broken black (has a 5 week old litter right now), the REW, and a tri color.

yanni - March 17, 2011 10:36 PM (GMT)
I put a photo of Momma on the backyardherds thread.

Celestial_Wind - March 17, 2011 10:38 PM (GMT)
Just tossing this out there....Is it possible you had another doe due at the same time and a kit ended up on the ground someone came into your barn and tossed that kit into that rabbits nestbox thinking thats where it belonged????? Just a thought, and putting it out there :)



Keep That has to be the most obserd retarded thing I have ever heard! Super funny!

Keepee - March 17, 2011 10:44 PM (GMT)
:lol: He swore up and down it was true and he definitely wasn't joking- he really believed that's what was happening!

yanni - March 17, 2011 10:57 PM (GMT)
I did have another doe due because I bred 2 on the same day. The other doe has not had any kits yet. I found the kits during morning chores as the doe was finishing up. She is a first timer and she had them all in the nest. Hurray for good mommas!

jbarlrabbitry - March 17, 2011 11:41 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (sidd-says-gimme @ Mar 17 2011, 11:20 AM)
QUOTE (Keepee @ Mar 17 2011, 11:18 AM)
One day, he swore up and down that he saw a buck uhm...squirt... his...stuff (that's awkward to try to type out in a nice way...) across the room!  Apparently, according to him, the buck would hit the cage and the does would apparently sit in it and voila, sometimes it resulted in babies.

:blink:

I'm right there....no idea how that would even be possible. LOL

cajun rabbit - March 18, 2011 12:02 AM (GMT)
I had a mini rex have an unexpected litter of babies on the floor of her cage once. They were unexpected because I didn't breed her. And, at that time, even if the kids didn't know better, they couldn't reach the latches to open the doors of the cages, so they couldn't have bred them. Well, as these mini rex babies grew, it was obvious that they weren't pure mini rex. And, the only other breed we had in the barn at that time was a netherland dwarf buck, who was in the cage right next to her :o ! So, it had to have happened through the wire cage.

Is it possible that a rabbit next to this momma may not be a doe? Mistakes are often made at identifying the sex of rabbits. Even after years of breeding and showing, we still make mistakes occassionally. Just last fall, I tried and tried to breed a jersey wooly and she just wanted to fight the bucks that I put her in with. When I checked to see if she was just not ready to breed, she was really a HE!!! He had even been shown as a doe when he was 10 weeks and did pretty good in his/her class :rofl: . And, he is definitely not split :o ! So, it happens :lol: .

Bumper - March 18, 2011 12:14 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Celestial_Wind @ Mar 17 2011, 05:38 PM)
Just tossing this out there....Is it possible you had another doe due at the same time and a kit ended up on the ground someone came into your barn and tossed that kit into that rabbits nestbox thinking thats where it belonged????? Just a thought, and putting it out there :)

Yeah I have had kits crawl between cages before. One time a couple babies crawled into my Silver senior buck's cage. They were in the front corner and he just sat in the back corner like he was afraid of them or something.

Sorry, that probably wasn't constructive! I'm interested to hear the results of your investigations!

Devoville - March 20, 2011 04:01 PM (GMT)
Yanni your website has a harlequin mini rex buck on it. That's your culprit!!!! I also said that rew is impossible (on rabbit talk) from a sable point and a seal!!! I think that the kit in question is NOT a sibling of the rew kits; maybe a half one at the most as its entirely different conformation -wise and size- wise.

yanni - March 20, 2011 05:07 PM (GMT)
OK. So. I know you all must be thinking at least one of three possiblitites: 1) I am crazy; 2) I am full of bunny berries; 3) I have myself a freak of nature. I prefer #3 since I know 1 and 2 aren't correct :) . That doe was only ever put with that one buck. There is absolutely no way any other buck could have had a date with her. I do have a harli buck in my barn. He is for my tri doe (who has not conceived anything with him, perhaps one of them is sterile). Unless his "essence" could remain viable on the straw in the exercise pen for 3 days, and then she sat in it, he is not that baby's daddy. I had considered putting her with him, but I was afraid I would just get a bunch of unshowables, so I never did. I think perhaps the doe's pedigree could have something to do with it. If sable point x seal cannot make a REW, then her pedigree is wrong. It does list some red, tort, and chocolate otter in there. So she herself is a bit of an enigma. But beyond a questionable pedigree, there is still the REW xREW issue. I actually wanted a litter of REW kits. I was really, really shocked when I checked her nestbox and discovered the little "surprise" kit. I think I will breed her again once this litter is older and see what she throws. Should I do that test? If so, with which buck? Also, should I contact her breeder and explain things and see what they have to say? Perhaps things just got a little switched around on their end. I am still looking for ideas. I love trying to solve a strange mystery!

Amy - March 20, 2011 10:45 PM (GMT)
Well pedigree issue alone (I wonder if it was a darker sia sable and just got listed as a seal, which can happen) it is still a REW x REW. Unless she is something like a broken pointed white, and the broken pattern is in such a way that there is no markings visible.

Locket Lops - March 20, 2011 11:04 PM (GMT)
I think you should face reality and realize that because REW x REW = REW that the kit had to have come from your harlequin buck. The face that you have a mystery harlequin pop up in a nest of REWs and there is a harlequin buck in your barn make him not being the dad almost impossible. It may be hard to believe but somewhere along the road, the buck got with the doe. Either directly or indirectly, he got her pregnant. Does can carry two litters at the same time because they have two horns to their uterus. So it could be that sometime that day after you'd bred her or a day or two after it happened and the birth of the first litter induced labor for the second litter.

It may sound impossible but the only logical explanation is that the harlequin buck is somehow the sire. :confused:

DevonGlen - March 21, 2011 02:32 AM (GMT)
To me personally the harlequin looks like it's from another litter. Size and shape wise it's nothing like the rews especially in the ear and head shape. At that age with 4 other babies that are nearly exact replicas it's just odd to have such a variation with the shape of ears, head, and the body size wise it looks like it's a day or two younger as well. In my Mini Rex I don't see size variation happening until they're much older. Even the non dwarfs are the same size as dwarfs until they're eating solid food.

I vote that it's either by a different sire, or from an entirely different litter.

yanni - March 21, 2011 06:10 PM (GMT)
OK :surrender: I'll just go with you guys on this. I'm tired of wracking my brain. They are all from the same kindling, though. Maybe she got pregnant in the other side when I wasn't looking? That buck is a bit of a stinker. I wish he would work that magic with the tri doe. What a brat! :wub: I'll have to name that little kit "Lucky O'Hare"




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