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 Symbols for TEN and ELEVEN?
The Mighty Dozen
Posted: Aug 2 2005, 08:56 PM


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I personally favour the DSGB's symbols over the DSA's. However, whatever symbols we need should exist right now in fonts that are easily available.

The "A", "B" scheme is well and good. However, I feel that using letters for the numbers is confusing. Plus, those two symbols do not necessarily fit in well with other number symbols: 0123456789AB. We have other common schemes too, like "T" & "E" (ten and eleven), and X for "ten". Maybe we could look to the Greek and Cyrillic alphabets (which fit aesthetically with the Roman one quite well) for inspiration. So maybe Г & Э for ten and eleven (because they resemble "T" and "E", but AREN'T "T" and "E").

0123456789ГЭ

Or maybe beta (β) or sigma (Σ) for eleven; one looks like a "B" but is not, and one looks like an "E" but is not. And they both, again, fit in with the aesthetics of the other numbers relatively well. Maybe a capital delta for "ten" (Δ) because it does look a lot like "A". Or maybe a capital lambda (Λ) which also looks like "A".

0123456789ΔΣ

We could go down the DSA route and have symbols resembling X and H. Perhaps: Ж (for "X") and one of Π Њ И (for "H").

0123456789ЖИ

Could you guys live with any of these? I do think we should settle on, at the very least, common world-wide symbols for these two numbers which AREN'T just "A" and "B".
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DPJ
Posted: Aug 3 2005, 02:35 AM


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I've been pouring over my Unicode character map for some suitable symbols after seeing your post.

I don't like the idea of using Greek letters since they are used in mathematics and the chance for some future confusion is great enough to discount them.

Cyrillic though doesn't really have that problem (at least not for us - the Ukrainians and others may disagree). Anyway, I like this pair:

Ж - ten
П - eleven

I'm of the opinion that anything we choose should also be easy to write by hand. The symbol for eleven fits this criteria well as it doesn't require a lifting of the hand. It has a secondary benefit in that if someone starts to accidentally write '11' they can quickly correct the mistake by adding a line. The symbol for ten is a little less easy to write as it requires three separate strokes. We could however accept a different rendering by hand - much like with the lower case 'a'. You could write a normal 'X' but connect the two diagonals with a horizontal line at the bottom so that the character could be written without lifting (upper left to lower right; lower right across to lower left; lower left to upper right).

123456789ЖП

Is there a way that these (or whichever symbols we agree on) can be added to the compose message area? Otherwise we're going to be forever copying out of character maps...

On the other hand, we could apply to have two new glyphs of our own design added to Unicode smile.gif.
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The Mighty Dozen
Posted: Aug 3 2005, 08:56 AM


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QUOTE

Is there a way that these (or whichever symbols we agree on) can be added to the compose message area?


Not that I know of, I'm afraid. It is a matter of configuring a shortcut (e.g. ctrl+alt+x) for the keys so as to save yourself going back to word all the time (or character map, indeed).

But I will look into it, but I don't see much point implementing anything like this til we agree on some symbols.



QUOTE

On the other hand, we could apply to have two new glyphs of our own design added to Unicode


How would one go about doing this? I personally think the DSGB ones, as refined by Hammond, are quite frankly excellent.
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The Mighty Dozen
Posted: Aug 3 2005, 09:49 AM


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QUOTE ("theshibboleth")
Я Dec
э Ounce



I assume you chose э because it looks like "e"; but why "Я"?
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Shaun
Posted: Aug 3 2005, 11:36 AM


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QUOTE (The Mighty Dozen @ Aug 2 2005, 08:56 PM)
Maybe a capital delta for "ten" (?) because it does look a lot like "A". Or maybe a capital lambda (?) which also looks like "A".

0123456789??

We could go down the DSA route and have symbols resembling X and H. Perhaps: ? (for "X") and one of ? ? ? (for "H").

0123456789??

Could you guys live with any of these? I do think we should settle on, at the very least, common world-wide symbols for these two numbers which AREN'T just "A" and "B".

I could live with the delta or the lambda or the X with a bar across it, but not the capital sigma or pi.
NB - handwriting has to be considered as well; I remember seeing the figure 1 being written almost like the cap lambda, in Spain.

The DSGB started off using the Xand E originally favoured by the DSA; I was largely responsible for the change to the Pitman suggestion of the rotated two for "ten"; but it isn't the easiest character to write distinctly, though Don Hammond had some ideas to make it more so, and it's the "ten" that needs to be sorted out as most people seem to accept the reflected 3 (flat-topped or round; or even flat-bottomed).

We should have set up this sort of forum long ago.
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The Mighty Dozen
Posted: Aug 3 2005, 11:46 AM


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QUOTE

We should have set up this sort of forum long ago.


Now is not the time for should haves and would haves (that's "should ofs and would ofs" for our American friends wink.gif ).

Interesting problem: in quoting my message, the symbols I posted have become scrambled and replaced by "?". What an odd bug.

I agree, most folks do seem to accept some variant of "E". Perhaps "Є" or IPA "ɛ". I prefer the former.

For ten, hmm, well, I prefer the Pitman character which is rather easy to draw by hand, very aesthetically pleasing, and fits in with the other symbols to boot! But there are no close matches. So maybe, for the computers, Ж, Λ or Δ. I really like DPJ's proposal for an x linked at the bottom for handwriting (a kind of cursive, upside-down eothel rune, if any of you know what one of those little fellas looks like).
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Rosie
Posted: Aug 3 2005, 12:32 PM


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My thinking is that the new symbols should be easy to write and not overlap with any other commonly used symbols (so I'd avoid Greek letters or those from the regular alphabet).
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The Mighty Dozen
Posted: Aug 3 2005, 12:39 PM


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Absolutely!! That is why the DSGB proposes the symbols is does propose. Here they are: user posted image

Cyrillic is useful because we don't use them in this country, of course. And the symbols "slot" quite well into the Roman alphabet, mostly. Plus the symbols are easily available. And that point is key- new symbols is well and good (and is the ideal solution), but sadly, if we don't have those symbols in word or unicode, then how can we ever use them but by handwritten correspondences? sad.gif It's not ideal, but _if_ we can find good symbols that already exist, then we ar on to a winner. smile.gif
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Rosie
Posted: Aug 3 2005, 12:41 PM


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I'd go with those. Because little progress can be made until an agreement can be reached on the symbols...
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The Mighty Dozen
Posted: Aug 3 2005, 12:43 PM


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Heh, we did have agreement between the DSA and DSGB at one stage. Then both changed the symbols to other things. So that is three systems in use. Plus we have the established "T" & "E" and "A" and "B" conventions to contend with.. and the whole thing is chaotic. It really is a bummer, to use the vernacular.

[EDIT]
This is the more in-depth page on it.
http://www.dozenalsociety.org.uk/basicstuff/hammond.html
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GPJ
Posted: Aug 3 2005, 03:16 PM


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I've long favoured, and used, lower case delta (d) and epsilon (e), for ten (deka) and eleven respectively, because of the appropriateness of the letters and their being in a similar style to the other numerals.

I don't think the fact that these letters are used for other purposes in mathematics is likely to cause any problem.

If necessary other Greek letters in sequence, zeta, eta, theta, iota, etc can be used for twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen and so on.
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genito
Posted: Aug 3 2005, 04:03 PM


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Up to now I have had a preference for the crossed out X, and the octothorpe (#) which H C Churchamn referred to as "not ten" and "not eleven".

Symbols should be easily found on typewriters and computer keyboards.

I think that we should consider lowering the cross out on the X. An underlined X would be easy on most keyboards and could be easily transformed into a single cursive stroke.

Genito
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The Mighty Dozen
Posted: Aug 3 2005, 08:35 PM


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QUOTE (GPJ @ Aug 3 2005, 03:16 PM)
I've long favoured, and used, lower case delta (d) and epsilon (e), for ten (deka) and eleven respectively, because of the appropriateness of the letters and their being in a similar style to the other numerals.

I don't think the fact that these letters are used for other purposes in mathematics is likely to cause any problem.

If necessary other Greek letters in sequence, zeta, eta, theta, iota, etc can be used for twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen and so on.

This is true. But those symbols do not fit in with the other numbers- they are kind of too small. Also, what about mathematical equations where Greek letters may be inappropriate, letters like "e" might therefore be inappropriate too. Why, tho, would one need to represent numbers like twelve, thirteen asf? I mean, surely those numbers are derived in a logical fashion. So, if the symbols for decimal 10 and 11 are A and B, then we have ... A B 10 11 12 13 14.... 19 1A 1B 20... Unless I'm misunderstaning you (HIGHLY possible!)



I agree with you both, however, that we really do need a symbol on keyboards or which is easily accessible. Tricky...
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DPJ
Posted: Aug 4 2005, 01:36 AM


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QUOTE (The Mighty Dozen @ Aug 3 2005, 04:56 AM)
QUOTE

Is there a way that these (or whichever symbols we agree on) can be added to the compose message area?


Not that I know of, I'm afraid. It is a matter of configuring a shortcut (e.g. ctrl+alt+x) for the keys so as to save yourself going back to word all the time (or character map, indeed).

But I will look into it, but I don't see much point implementing anything like this til we agree on some symbols.



QUOTE

On the other hand, we could apply to have two new glyphs of our own design added to Unicode


How would one go about doing this? I personally think the DSGB ones, as refined by Hammond, are quite frankly excellent.

Well if it's not readily possible to make a straight-forward way of adding characters I say we stick with using X/T and E until we're able to do differently. Since I'm using Linux I can remap my keyboard without too much trouble so it wouldn't be too difficult for me but for everyone else it could be problematic unless more recent versions of Windows have made this easier (have they?).


As for Unicode, well that's a whole other story. This could and probably would take years before something would come of it.

Unicode is a type of character encoding, like ISO 8859-1 (which is what we mainly use right now). Unicode has the advantage of being pretty close to universal, covering a range of characters from all over the world. It's the logical character set to add new characters to.

That said, even if the characters are added to Unicode someone still has to make a font containing the glyphs - even the massive Arial Unicode MS font doesn't have glyphs for all the characters contained in the Unicode specs for example.

How to add a character or two to Unicode? A visit to unicode.org is in order:

http://www.unicode.org/pending/proposals.html

One would also have to decide whether to add only the two missing characters or the whole set. As it happens, there are twelve unassigned slots from U+2184 to U+218F following the section on Roman numerals, which, after having looked through the character tables is the most logical place to put them. The advantage of securing twelve slots is that font makers would be free to distinguish the base-twelve fonts a bit from the base-ten ones. They wouldn't have to but they could.

As part of the proposal we'd have to include a font with the glyphs so that would be an avenue worth pursuing anyway and once we had such a font we could use it on our own pages with a link to download it. I just don't know how to create fonts...
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adolfzero
Posted: Aug 5 2005, 06:42 PM


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Hey i'm new to this so bear with me.
I don't know much about math, but it looks like we are trying to reinvent the wheel... lol I've been doing some reading, I am not too much on school, because i am self educated. I gave up on schooling, just about the 8th grade.
It was for personal reasons. "Poverty"
Ok enough of that...
We are looking to add symbols to represent the numbers Ten & Eleven.
So I came up with this.........

0123
4567
89
Normally we start our base at Zero.
A ten base system starts at Zero And Ends At Nine, After Nine We Carry Over....
A Eight base system starts at Zero And Ends At Seven, After Seven We Carry Over...
Hexadecimal A Sixteen Base System We Start At Zero And End Up With F...
Zero Thru Nine, Then A,B,C,D,E,F ... After F We Carry Over....

So We Count, 1 ,2 ,3 ,4 ,5 ,6 ,7 ,8 ,9 , , ,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,1,1,20,21,
22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,2,2,30,31,....... And so on

I picked Theses symbols because it kind of reminds me of Ten And Eleven
10 = 11 = 10 a zero with a line through it......
11 An I with a ^ on the top , If you look at the count after 19 it looks like
ten and eleven 1 1
It is more appealing to the mind, I don't know me stupid Tell me what you think....
lol
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The Mighty Dozen
Posted: Aug 5 2005, 07:29 PM


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First, let me welcome you to the forum: WELCOME!! And now let me go on to dismiss all of your ideas wink.gif You definitely understand the concept of number base. At first glance I really liked your idea for ten. But then I realised it is VERY similar to the symbol for zero (which in many fonts is a crossed o). As for your eleven.. what can I say? A very novel approach, quite original, I like it. I am not sure that anyone really has a problem displaying that character (do they?). However, one could say it does not fit in because it has a diacritic applied to it when the other numebrs don't. I don't know if that would be a relevant criticism, tho. It DOES resemble 11 a fair bit, which is a point in its favour, but it also does not very much resemble other widely established symbol conventions for eleven. That is potentially a good thing, potentially bad, all depending on perspective.

My preference is still the official DSGB proposal. Failing that (for practical reasons), either Ж, Λ or Δ for ten, and Є, Π or И for eleven. But that is just me, and I'm hardly an authority. smile.gif
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adolfzero
Posted: Aug 5 2005, 08:54 PM


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I'ts a privlege to associate with thinking people, oh my is that what we really are? lol
I see you point, we are all entitled to our own opinion.
On the other hand I could have used a O with a \ through it to represent 10.
Subliminaly it would mean no 10, or anti 10, or TEN IS BAD.... lol
Maybe we are taking the wrong approch... Zero represents the tens space, so why should we change it. Base 12 would be base 10+2 , Sooo lets leave 10 and 11 alone.
we'll just carry over at the twelve spot.... he he Simple
Introducing a forien objects into the number system will cause mass confusion.
Math is an illusion we create to define our universe.
The myans had a system based on 20, they were able to map the galaxy, and predict the galactic year, "how long it takes our galaxy to full circle". This is just one example.
We plot graphs and make charts, theses are based on tables we create, change the table and what happens? the graphs and charts change. Who knows we may stumble upon a new form of math "something that we create to define our universe" that will take us to areas outside of three dimensional reality. Just a thought... I'm not crazy.
This is just something to think about, I have an open mind, i respect other peoples opinions.....
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The Mighty Dozen
Posted: Aug 5 2005, 08:57 PM


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An interesting and diverce post, I think biggrin.gif tongue.gif I'm not sure I follow one bit, tho. Do you mean we should have 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 10 11 12 13 14 15.. ? We really, really DO need new symbols for current 10 and 11, whatever those symbols be.

[EDIT] They may be current extant symbols, just so long as they do not "clash" in any way.
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adolfzero
Posted: Aug 5 2005, 09:30 PM


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Lol didn't mean to confuse anyone.. What i meant was carry at 12 instead of 10...
We can leave 10 and 11 alone. Just like how we caculate time, Hours, minutes , seconds. Months, all based on 12. Take a circle for example. 360 deg... or 30 equal parts of 12.... A clock is based on 12 equal parts of one, break it down minutes , seconds,..... the day is divided into two halves am, pm...
it is just a matter of thinking. math is based on relationships how one number relates to the other, just as how man relates to his universe, enviorment , animals , people.... ect
Change the table , the graphs and plots change.. "math is an ilusion"
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The Mighty Dozen
Posted: Aug 6 2005, 10:19 AM


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Well, that is what we're suggesting. smile.gif That we carry over at 12 instead of ten. "10" = *** *** *** *** in base twelve, *** *** *** * in base ten, *** *** ** in base eight, and ** in base two. The point is, if we use a base above ten, then we don't have any symbols to represent the numbers before we get to "10". Thus, we must make use of the General practice, based on hex; namely A, B, C, D, E... but I think most folks agree that that simply will not do in the long run (afterall, that would be going BACK a step, historically).
Try to disassociate the word "ten", and your vision of *** *** *** * objects, from the number "10". "10" simply means 1x ten/twelve/four/seven/sixteen (whatever the base is) and no units.

Thus, the debate.


My point of view clearly summed up (as I think I've been waffling thus far):

We must go with one of the current practices (A, B; T, E; X, H) but choose common characters most closely resembling those if we can. Hence my above suggestions.
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Twinbee
Posted: Aug 6 2005, 04:20 PM


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I agree that it would be nice for them to not clash with any mathematical symbols.

Below are some of my favourites. One or two of them are from the DSGB range. Others are borrowed from here and there (including this thread), and flipped, chopped and twisted. And a few of them I made myself. Some of them may look a bit weird initially, but I think you'll find that they look more like the numbers 0 - 9 than most symbols do. Aesthetically, I think that's quite important.

user posted image
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adolfzero
Posted: Aug 6 2005, 07:58 PM


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ok how about this......



10 = * 11 = #

10 = 11 =

10 = 11 =

Don't want to offend anyone, But you will need something that everyone can relate to....
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finlay
Posted: Aug 6 2005, 10:08 PM


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I'm thinking that whatever we end up with, it should be writable with a single stroke of a pen or two short ones. 4 and 5 need two while the others need one. I don't like X for this though because the strokes are too far apart. Something resembling E is alright but ideally it should also be able to be written with one stroke, so eg making it more like 3 or epsilon.
I do quite like lambda.

As soon as we decide on something, we need to prepare a keyboard layout which can type them, perhaps where - and + are on the standard layout (but there's a whole other argument there as some like myself don't use the standard layout. It's like how people here are about base 10)
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The Mighty Dozen
Posted: Aug 6 2005, 10:30 PM


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I can't say I disagree with those points, Finlay. Altho, "X" *can* be written quickly, as said earlier in this post... if you make it a kind of upside, cursive, ethel rune. Go from top left to bottom right, then go left and loop back over to the top right; one movement.
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