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Dozensonline > Applications and appliances > Universal Clocks, Dozenal And Traditional

Posted by: Paul Rapoport Mar 10 2017, 10:13 PM
Several people here and elsewhere have proposed getting rid of time zones. The reasons vary. The solutions also vary even if there’s only one simple principle: the time is the same everywhere, and the date changes everywhere when a chosen time occurs in a chosen place.

This spring I plan to come up with such a clock on the Internet that will keep time from one place, probably 0° longitude, wherever that may be. (User choice may move it from Greenwich.) The clock will be dozenal diurnal, possibly with a semi-diurnal option. The question then is: what information is needed in order to use the clock anywhere? More than the current time, it seems.

There’s disagreement whether a clock face with hands is necessary or even useful. In the case of digital only, I figure that the time displayed needs an additional display: the location’s midnight time --- since except at 0°, 000 is not midnight. The offset from 000 will be useful to determine what part of the day is indicated by a particular time in a particular place.

If hands and numbers are used, the shortest, diurnal hand will always indicate the elapsed fraction of the day. Midnight may be at the bottom and noon at the top. Also to choose is whether to reckon the day from midnight or from noon. (There’s at least one person who prefers the latter, making noon 000.)

A further issue is what the clock face does. With time zones, the clock face is stationary but with enough travel, at least one hand moves from one number to another. Without time zones, the hands stay with their numbers but travel makes the clock face rotate according to longitudinal distance from 0°.

One major question arises: how often should the clock face rotate? At present I’m thinking the options might be every d | 30°, 15°, 7.5°, or 2.5°; or continuously.

Whether such a clock is usable, I don’t know. Maybe time zones will be deemed better. Maybe not.

Posted by: Kodegadulo Mar 10 2017, 10:33 PM
If it's a universal clock, then I would think you would want the hands and the markings to remain stable, always tracking Greenwich time (or whatever is deemed latitude zero), since that would be the numeric time for everybody around the world. But then you would have some kind of color scheme, perhaps comparable to UncialClockDeluxe's diurnal clockface, but tilted appropriately to indicate when the local day and night occurs. There would be no need for "time zones" at all, nor "jumping" as you travel. The coloring would just continuously orient itself based on your current longitude, which I presume it would get via GPS. Well, I suppose as a practical matter there would still be effective timezones, since people would want the work day to round to whole hours or dwells of Greenwich time nearest to the usual local stretch of "working daylight".

Posted by: Paul Rapoport Mar 10 2017, 11:36 PM
The color idea may work, taking the place of the rotating clock face (although it may still nice to have midnight and noon always on the vertical axis). But you've hit on a problem: time zones in another guise. Rounding to the nearest dwell would create bands like what we have (only twice as wide), with 0° and 180° longitude in the center of a band of a dwell rather than being the demarcation line (in order to avoid, for example, a big change in the middle of London). That doesn't matter in a basic sense; they may be in the center or at the edge. The result is conceptually the same.

Would the effect be an even bigger jump (if not in hands, in orientation of some sort) than what we have now? If one place has the work day starting around z|800, would that mean that crossing a longitude at most d|30° away, the work day would start at 900 or 700? (Depending on the direction from the 800.) Would that require thinking as if there were 2-hour time zones?

Posted by: Oschkar Mar 11 2017, 12:30 AM
Not necessarily. Probably, the beginning of the work day at the edges of the time zones would be variable, with some businesses opening at 800, others at 900, and yet others at intermediate times like 860 or 840.

Posted by: Paul Rapoport Mar 11 2017, 01:06 AM
A reasonable point. Not all businesses open at the same time now in the same time zone or in the same city. How this might work with no time zones and how a person might understand time are still difficult to predict.

It's still necessary to specify how often the clock will rotate or the colors will shift with regard to longitude. I don't know, although I'm interested in the ten-minute (d|2.5°) and continuous options.

Posted by: Kodegadulo Mar 11 2017, 08:22 PM
I think I could add this to UncialClockDeluxe as another mode for the Diurnal clockface. It would simply show Greenwich time always, but use the local time zone setting to determine the background sky color, and to tilt the noon-to-midnight color gradient in the central dial to one of two dozen semi-unciaturn angles for the two-dozen possible semi-dwell time zones ... actually there are a small number of quarter-dwell time zones too, so in theory I should accommodate four dozen possible quarter-unciaturn angles.

Posted by: sunny Mar 12 2017, 01:45 AM
QUOTE (Kodegadulo @ Mar 12 2017, 01:52 AM)
I think I could add this to UncialClockDeluxe as another mode for the Diurnal clockface. It would simply show Greenwich time always, but use the local time zone setting to determine the background sky color, and to tilt the noon-to-midnight color gradient in the central dial to one of two dozen semi-unciaturn angles for the two-dozen possible semi-dwell time zones ... actually there are a small number of quarter-dwell time zones too, so in theory I should accommodate four dozen possible quarter-unciaturn angles.

Hi Kode,

I suggest keeping noon up and midnight down (which would be a self explanatory case against the gradient), the clock could always show the same 'Greenwich time' regardless of the location, this could be achieved by rotating the 'numerals' that depends on the location, you could go for the fixed integer of biciaturn or unciaturn setting in the background which i think you got that Paul's suggestion already mentioned earlier. This can be achieved by rotating the background at a certain angle that depends on the longitude in such a way that the small hand always follows the sun for that particular longitude.

Another similar option would be is to have the continuous rotating clock face, like (a YouTube Video), i.e, instead of a fixed background as in earlier case, this can have a fixed 'duor hand' that depends on the location and a continuous rotating background where '0' would always point roughly towards the sun at all times for any location, that 'equivalent brown fixed' hand would still show the same time all over the world though.

Regarding a better location than Greenwich, why don't you prefer 'FMT' as it is less Anglo-centric and more Euro-centric, but which shows a good representation of the globe? The equivalent time zone offset could be 11.25x4 =+45 minutes added to Greenwich. Another option is the true antipode of a meridian in the pacific passing through a least land, which may be 11.564 degrees east (that passes roughly through Munich) although that offset of 11.564 ~ 46 minutes and 15 seconds won't matter much, but i prefer it better.

In any case, rotating clock background or rotating hands, that both track the sun, I don't find any attachment towards quarter duors or semi duors you preferred as they are not any direct dozenal unit for Diurnal time. I would rather prefer whole integers of any unciaday or biciaday in that regard.

Is any of such a good option or am I not heading in the right direction? Any more possibilities/suggestions/options for such clock that shows the same 'Universal Time' everywhere?

Posted by: Paul Rapoport Aug 5 2017, 01:52 PM
We are beginning work on three versions of a world clock with no time zones. There will be occasional progress reports and possibly questions.

Posted by: Paul Rapoport Aug 9 2017, 09:54 PM
Make that six versions at least. Three dozenal and three in the traditional clock format, in decimal notation, semidiurnal, hr-min-sec, the whole sexagesimal bit. The world clock is such an odd idea that people may need to look at it with reference to a familiar clock instead of jumping in with dozenal thrown at them at the same time, even though dozenal diurnal makes the concept easier.

Posted by: Paul Rapoport Aug 15 2017, 03:26 PM
The Georgia state capitol, in Atlanta, is at longitude d|-84.38781. To use a universal timezoneless clock in Atlanta, you read UTC and have to know when nominal midnight there is, as the subtracted offset from UTC. Using time bands of an hour (z|0.060 or half a dwell of the Earth’s surface), the offset is z|300, i.e. 6 hours. Using bands of z|0.10 (d|10 minutes or z|10 trices), the offset is z|2X0, i.e. 5 hours d|40 minutes.

At Atlanta’s latitude, the former allows places 863 miles apart to use the same offset; the latter means places 144 miles apart.

This may be seen easily on a real clock face. Pix on request. (The dozenal universal clock faces are under development, and close to being finished.)

Posted by: Paul Rapoport Aug 28 2017, 07:09 PM
Below are four clocks illustrating UTC time with offsets for the AMA Conference Center in Atlanta. There’s much to explain; only essentials are given here. The time band width is 10z trices. Midnight in Atlanta is 2X0 UTC. 08:25 UTC is the time illustrated.

Clock 1: the simplest, with the usual dozenal hand movements.
Clock 2: the shortest hand follows the local sun if the top is considered south or the clock runs counterclockwise (possible) with north at the top.
Clock 3: the shortest hand is stationary and the face rotates.
Clock 4: also has the shortest hand stationary and the face rotating. The 0 follows the local sun if the top is considered north and the clock runs clockwise.

(The clocks run on two bases: midnight at Greenwich and noon at the International Date Line. Those two are the same but require a few differences in format.)

We’ll probably change the abbreviation of pentqua·lengthel to the one for dromal·length. There are also four traditional clocks (semi-diurnal, decimal/sexagesimal) showing the same mechanisms.
The clocks will go live soon, and a manual is in preparation. I hope people will try them out from their own co-ordinates (the API default), and substitute whichever others they wish.

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Posted by: icarus Aug 29 2017, 01:34 AM
Paul these are incredible!

Posted by: Paul Rapoport Aug 29 2017, 02:15 AM
Thanks. There are also the traditional clocks, not posted yet.
As soon as I can get my programmer to fix a few calculation errors (a few among very many), we'll go live, and you may watch these things do their things.
(A nod here to Sunny in Bengaluru, who's been of notable help in this project.)

Posted by: Paul Rapoport Sep 5 2017, 01:25 AM
We now have six dozenal clocks, although that's really 48 with most of the options. I hope to upload the whole project to a website by the end of the coming weekend.
It's been a wild ride, with results I doubt anyone would have predicted.

Posted by: Paul Rapoport Sep 8 2017, 12:27 AM
What became a joint project in dozenal with Sunny is now Clocks, lots of clocks, turning this way and that. In another life I'd have called them prime, inversion, retrograde, and retrograde inversion. There are reasons for all those.

For you 'n' me, it's UTC. Lousy slogan. I'm not sure UTC is a lot better than time zones, although it does seem somewhat better. What are needed are people playing with these clocks and the very many user choices that go with them.

Dozenal is the default. Traditional (decimal/sexagesimal) is a heavy option, not the best, but the way into this for many people.

An introductory manual is I plan to write more about the issues, with examples etc.

Posted by: Kodegadulo Sep 9 2017, 01:08 PM
Hi Paul, cool stuff. I'm currently working through your manual in an effort to digest what you've accomplished. I notice that the PDF at seems to have a couple of links on page (judging from the blue underscore text), that don't seem to work. Can you make sure to spell those out in full?

Posted by: wendy.krieger Sep 9 2017, 01:28 PM
I'm not a fan of a universal time zone. The swatch used a decimal system pretty much as intended here, did not go well.

You see, if you take here as 'true time', than california's working day would run from 000 to 460, and the UK would run from 760 to 000. Anywhere in between these places would have their working day split over the day change.

You would use a series of westings, with 000 on the dateline. Brisbane is E10, gives a time zone of E00. So the time here as E25, would make the meridian time as 025, (by subtracting E00.)

But you would suppose that wherever in the world you are, people go to work by 400 or 460, (ie 8 or 9 am), and work to say 5p = 860. If you were to suppose they started at midnight (like CA), and work to 8 am then it would be rather strange.

The best one could do is to have local and zulu time side by side.

Posted by: Paul Rapoport Sep 9 2017, 02:30 PM
The pdf is fixed. We may add more clocks and do a few other things, although what's there now seems to work, with one tiny odd calculation we'll also fix, although chances are no one will find it…

The biggest problem with UTC is indeed the change of date in different parts of the day as the sun goes. How much a problem that is remains to be seen; I don't want to evaluate it without trials in several places. Still, changing the date everywhere at the same time would mean the International Date Line wouldn't have to be redrawn to go around certain lands.

I draw attention to the concept of time bands, which do not have to be (and in my view should not be) 6 breathers/1 hour. Some of the smallest time bands seem absurd but are there to see what may be made of them. They may require different thinking.

The most fun may be the Continuous mode, where moving a very short distance (e.g. 11.132 metres/36.52 feet at the equator, less elsewhere) may change the dozenal offset in its last digit. Although that degree of precision can't be accurate, it may end up being useful somehow.

Certainly the current system has led to strange results, such as a time zone of +13.75; and Adelaide, Australia, well west of Brisbane, being behind it in part of the year and ahead of it in the other part. As long as we have 1-hour time zones, fiddling with the borders is a given, regardless of DST.

China needs 5 zones but uses only 1. That might be instructive for a look at UTC over a large area, although resentment over the imposition of Beijing time might complicate it.

Posted by: wendy.krieger Sep 10 2017, 08:20 AM
Australia goes into both the tropics and temporate zone. Miami in Qld is about the same lattitude as the one in Florida, and nearly all of the USA is more to the pole tha Australia. In summer, we have five time zones: Sydney (DST), Adelade (DST), Brisbane, Darwin, and Perth (DST).

MLT (mean local time = MT + Westing), is useful where one is doing navigation or geodesics. This is because you can match mean local time to UTC and get longitude. You can do pretty much the same with siderial time, time of year and solar time too.

But Railway time replaced MLT during the 19th C, where a two-hour journey from London to Bristol would give something like a 6-minute time lag. The Railway time eventually replaced localtime whenever the railways came. Other businesses that operate over large areas benefit too.

While something like UTC would eliminate the date line, for much of the world, it means that the day changes during the working morning. Here in Brisbane, the new UTC day begins at 10.00 am, so we would go to work at 22.00 Thu, and work to 06.00 Fri, as a normal work day. The international date line causes less problems than this.

Alternately, there is the would eliminate all problems, because the resulting six-day week of 28 hours, would mean that the rising of the sun moves through the week, and you pretty much get something like somewhere someone's going to work in the hot afternoon etc.

I used to work on the state level of the national payroll, and thus we would have to get our request to runs in by our close. But because central office is dealing with multiple regions, we get staggered closes as Perth is 2 hours behind us.

In adelaide, I noticed that business tended to loose various connections as the head offices logged off at 5pm, so they would loose access at 4.30 p.

Interstate trains run on one or two times. For example, N1 and N2 (the Sydney Mail), runs on Sydney time, even in Brisbane. Step on the train and an hour forward, kind of thing.

Regards China.

I red a number of comments on Quora written by people who live in the far west, such as Yarkand. Although the clocks run to Peking times, the actual office times ran two or three hours later, due to the sun. So Opening at 8.0 in Peking, would be reflected by an opening at 10.0 or 11.0 further west.

Regarding India

India would straddle two time zones, but they can bring the whole country into one time zone by using a time zone in between them.

Posted by: Paul Rapoport Sep 10 2017, 12:32 PM
Alternately, there is the 28-hour day would eliminate all problems, because the resulting six-day week of 28 hours, would mean that the rising of the sun moves through the week, and you pretty much get something like somewhere someone's going to work in the hot afternoon etc.

That takes the problem and puts it elsewhere. People on a normal schedule would rise, work, eat, sleep, etc. at a different time every successive day. There's nothing necessary about a 120z-hour week; you may have 6-day weeks of 100z hours, if you want hours.
In the current project we'll probably build Clocks 1b and 2b, and maybe another, and take away the more absurd speeds in a few places.

Posted by: sunny Sep 11 2017, 06:15 AM
Once again, for those who didn't understand the mechanism and logic applied on the clocks can ask questions regarding it because afaik, this might be the only one or rare where such mechanism or logic is applied. And also for further improvements or possibilities of any such clocks (if) can be done, I would like to know: Any possibilities, with logical and helpful outcomes. The clocks are at

Posted by: Paul Rapoport Sep 11 2017, 01:05 PM
The basic question I have is: can people do well with the date changing at another part of the day besides local midnight? It's often said that anyone on a night shift does that. They are still the exception, however, and I don't know of anything but anecdotes describing the problems that that may or may not create.

For almost everyone, the date changes when people are either asleep or not doing much. Where I am, with the Continuous band, the date would change at what is currently 18:40 standard time. Is that outside a tolerance range for most people in the industrialized world, at least? I suspect that any time is workable, subject to thinking that I haven't yet thought of. With how much difficulty, I don't know.

Posted by: wendy.krieger Sep 11 2017, 01:53 PM
You can always try.

My brother runs his house on J-time (ie GMT+9), rather than local time (GMT + 10), for reasons to do with this was the proposed australia-wide time-zone at federation.

The whole thing about days etc, is that a good deal of commerce is meant to be contain to a day. Consider say a public holiday. It might start at 10 am local time, and run to 10 am the next day. Or 1 pm. It would be terribly disruptive.

I mean, if i went to london, or vancouver, I would sure hope their days are the same as ours, as price for the jet lag.

You could try something that is relatively easy, like imagine that the time is ten hours earlier. So if it's 3 pm local time, you would say it's 5 am, and 8:30 am is something like 10:30 pm. You would see how easy it's to be thrown out.

Even with largish time zones, like just four or six, put yourself at the edge of one of those and see how you like 3 hrs permanent daylight savings!! Or going to work at 10 am and working to 7 pm.

Posted by: Paul Rapoport Sep 11 2017, 05:28 PM
As for holidays, in one religion at least, they begin at sunset and end at sunset. No big problem. For commerce, a local day would still be a local day. Only the numbers would be different.

Large time zones make little sense to me. Time bands are not zones and may well be smaller than an hour, with more of them.

In travelling, the dates would be the same but the days wouldn't. May be feasible, who knows. I don't see any point in imagining anything in AM and PM, though. We have to get rid of them, because they're an obstruction to such an experiment. Dozenal time is of course better.

I'm still interested in how to try UTC. May an individual be able to do it well? Or does it take a widely spaced group? How would an experiment be set up?

Posted by: wendy.krieger Sep 12 2017, 10:43 AM
UTC is no more difficult than adding a clock to the task bar, and putting UTC on it. The forum runs on UTC, and you can always check current forum time. Also there are other web services running on UTC, such as StackExchange.

The current time here is Tues 7/53 (ie pm), the UTC is Tues 9.53 (ie am). So a whole day has gone, but UTC is only starting the day. The swap happens at 10 am. The Wikipedia updates at midnight, UTC, so we get the update at 10am.

I have tinkered around with some different time systems and how these might work.

The day of 40 demurs of 1000 hesits is a kind of metric time. The demur is then 10 grades of time, and we thus connect time to angle in the same way as dozenal systems.

It's best to avoid negative numbers, so you add a buffer at the date line, so that it is say, 100 grades ahead of zero time. The eastings then run across america, london (300), and finally Brisbane (470).

UTC at 10.0 is then 0.4166 days, or 16.66 demurs. The Zero time, by subtracting 30 to UTC, gives B6.666, where A, B, C, D are -1 ..-4. Adding 47.0 to this gives 33.66 demurs, which is local time.

The thing with demurs, is that you can restict the calculations to one digit, and use overflow (ie numbers greater than 40), on the previous day. It's like giving 0200 Thu as 2600 Mon. You could then use something like this, where zero-time is represented nowhere, but everywhere is some time earlier than true time (ie true time = local time - easting). The easting would then correspond to the longitude, and the time zone. But it is better to set the true-time to something off range to the local times.

You can do this with time, by allowing more than 24 hours in a day. You take local time, and add westing-ascession to it. Westing ascession is (180 - e°E)/15, or (180+w°W)/15. So here, we are 153 east, so the easting gives 27/15 or 1h 48m. Were I to add this to local time, of 20.35, i get 22.23, true-time.

Day and Date

If you don't do range-checking on something like day(yyyy,mm,dd), and simply allow the ranges to overflow as needed, you can use the same function to handle many different calendars. For example, the long count of days from 1900 is evaluated as (1900, 1, ddd), ie ddd JAN 1900.

I really don't reccomend having everywhere changing date at the same time, because it's not just a matter of morning or night, but anywhere in the day or night. I could as a matter of following daylight, get up at 8 pm Tues and go to bed at 8 am Wed. The day would change while I am awake.

On the other hand, I know reasonably that people work 9-5, and that their 9am is my 1 am, and their 5 pm is then my 9 am, and program accordingly. One way to overcome jetlag, is to live time according to the destination well before you arrive there. It's much harder to figure out when their clocks say the same time as yours.

The size of the time zones really has to do with how big an area you can get away with using the same clock. The china solution is not much use if the local time in Lhasa is used to work the banks etc (ie Open at 8 am, = 10 am Peking time, where the same action is 8 am in Peking).

Without any large-scale connections across a country, you can use local time, and this was the rule before the coming of railways. Aeroplanes use UTC, but their scope is that they can't really introduce localities until you're well past the terminal.

Posted by: Paul Rapoport Sep 12 2017, 11:20 AM
This project answers the question of what it may be like to have only a UTC clock. (Which ones, I don't know. A few more are coming. Others may decide what they like.)

It's also necessary to know other people's offset from UTC, not assuming that 1-hour bands are best, and to dispense with daylight saving time and the irregularities of the large time zones.

Even if it would be easier just to use digital readouts, the sometimes frustrating fun in this has been to determine how the hands move or don't move. They illustrate tracking a generalized version of how the sun appears to move relative to one's own position, including marking the day's phases and their continuity. Both of those should help when the date and day become separated.

Although all this is still an experiment, merely adding a UTC clock beside an existing local clock doesn't provide enough information.

Posted by: sunny Sep 13 2017, 05:23 AM
QUOTE (Paul Rapoport @ Sep 12 2017, 04:50 PM)
Although all this is still an experiment, merely adding a UTC clock beside an existing local clock doesn't provide enough information.

Which by the way already exists as the main clock and is still referenced by you as the 'prime clock' or 'Clock 1', and that should signify enough importance of it, even though if it's less helpful.

Not that the other clocks are of less importance. They might be more helpful for practical purposes, if not equal. smile.gif

Posted by: Paul Rapoport Sep 13 2017, 02:46 PM
Even Clock 1, the simplest, comes with important auxiliaries: choice of time band width, measured width of the band, and numbers showing the beginning of the overnight and afternoon phases. All of that is settable by the longitude and latitude chosen. And of course all in dozenal and traditional formats, with still more choices I haven't mentioned.

Posted by: Paul Rapoport Sep 18 2017, 02:22 AM
Latest expansion of the clocks is now up, There are 8 clocks, 16 if you include both dozenal and traditional, or 128 if you include all the major options (therefore 64 in dozenal only).

I haven't a clear idea how we got this far, from a simple basic idea: a UTC dozenal clock. Many discoveries along the way, and an elaborate and I suppose unique result, notably odder than the dozenal clocks and calendar I've produced over the past few years.

Sunny in Bengaluru has been perceptive and helpful throughout the process (worth repeating).

The big question: can people live on UTC? The time everywhere is the same but any sun position has different times in distant places --- as opposed to the current system, in which the time is different in distant places but any sun position has the same time everywhere (more or less).

I intend to write about this in detail at some point. Dozenal timekeeping makes the discussion much easier.

Posted by: sunny Sep 19 2017, 07:14 PM
The dozenal clocks that has explained earlier has been slightly changed as mentioned above by Paul. So, I deleted my previous post in order to modify the summary again:

No. of Clocks:

Technically, there is only one diurnal universal clock that shows the same UTC time everywhere (Greenwich/Munich Time, whichever is chosen. The Munich time is reformed longitude corresponding to 46.2588 minutes ahead of Greenwich) and all the other clocks are again, technically the same UTC clock but they are different in the sense on how the same UTC clock is displayed for them. This same clock can be 2 different clocks, one with continuous rotating background/clock-face once per day and the other is the usual, without the rotating background, each again multiplied by 2 to provide 4 clocks if you consider one of them having a fixed hand/0 always at either the selected top/bottom position on the clock, and the other one where that moving hand/0 follows the sun at your place, which would bring the count to 4 clocks. Here, the fixed hand is for rotating background clocks and the fixed 0 is for stationary background clocks. The 8 clocks are again only about how the arcs are displayed, that represent the phase of the day, where the 4 clocks with 'a' means keeping them stationary and 'b' means they would be in movement.

(There are four other clocks which are the usual traditional ones that tries to mimic these dozenal clocks which could aid in understanding how the dozenal clocks with diurnal universal time works, mostly for people who don't know the clocks for concept of dozenal direct divisions of the day. But if you are here on the forum already familiar with usual dozenal clocks with diurnal time, you don't need to look at the traditional clocks.)

Here's the short description on all clocks:

Let's take the example by selecting the 'Greenwich' option and the 'clockwise' movement of the hands:

1. Clock 1: Is the usual dozenal clock which shows Greenwich time, hence the small hand follows the sun as if it is near/at Greenwich (or any place that it shares its longitude with).

2. Clock 2: This clock, same as Clock 1 but its background/face is rotated continuously once a day (in the anticlockwise direction) but in such a way that the smallest hand appears stationary and is fixed pointing always at the bottom. The rotating '0' appears to be following the sun (but anticlockwise) as if the clock is at/near Greenwich (or any place that it shares its longitude with).

3. Clock 3: Is same as clock 1 but the background/face is rotated and fixed at some angle in such a way that the smallest hand will follow the sun at your place.

4. Clock 4: Is same as Clock 2, but the stationary hand is not necessarily fixed at bottom, but is fixed at some angle in such a way that the rotating '0' follows the sun (again, anticlockwise) at your place.

There are two options as 'a' and 'b'. If you select the clock with 'a', the arcs are stationary, hence the moving elements (either small hand or numeral 0, that is moving) will be indicating the correct local phase and if 'b' is selected, the arcs are rotated once a day, hence the stationary elements (either small hand or numeral 0, that is stationary) will be pointing at the correct local phase. I personally prefer 'a' clocks, as they are comparatively easy to grasp than 'b' ones, for amateurs.

There are clockwise and anticlockwise direction options for hands direction movement. The '0' can be placed at 'top' position for Clock 1, or smallest fixed hand at 'top' position for Clock 2. Labelled as the 'top/bottom origin', the bottom origin as for Greenwich midnight date change and top origin as the Date line noon date change, where but both happen simultaneously, so there is no change in the 'Universal Time'.

So if you select the 'origin top', all clocks would behave as if they are considered the Date line as the prime meridian and the date would change there at its noon. For Munich selected option, the date line is its corresponding antipode near the antipode of Greenwich precisely 11.5647 degrees to its right.

There is another dropdown menu as 'time band', with various options such as 1 dwell/unciaday, 1 breather/biciaday etc to name a few where the change of phases are pointed to these rounded time mark for start of the phases of exact point of noon, midnight, sunrise and sunset of your place, they would be rounded to nearest dozenal universal time that are by increments of applied options. Your place can be at any location where those exact time vary and hence should be rounded off to the nearest rounded universal time because even 1 degree of movement in eastward/westward direction on earth makes the sun's position differ by 4 minutes, and thus selecting an option as 'continuous' for such would not round off any phases with the nearest time.

There are lot of Time band options that can be selected in order to get the corresponding band width and position (b/w and pos'n) at your place, and the latter depends upon the origin top/bottom chosen. The b/w is the valid width boundary in east-west direction corresponding to the selected time band, and pos'n is the % calculated by dividing the length/angle of the nearest longitude boundary (which is towards the chosen origin side) by the total length/angle of the b/w.

The location coordinates that is shown/entered in the main page is only taken as offset from traditional Greenwich meridian and won't be changed when selected to the Munich Meridian option.

The big question: can people live on UTC? The time everywhere is the same but any sun position has different times in distant places --- as opposed to the current system, in which the time is different in distant places but any sun position has the same time everywhere (more or less).

Due to increased Globalization in any near future: There might be a practical chance towards abolishing time zones, and people could adapt to them. Currently, the flights and pilots use UTC Military Time for the air travel which is the fastest on earth, where they may enter into various time zones anywhere on earth within a day, the sun may rise/set many times within a day for astronauts working at ISS, but for a specific person on earth confined to a location, the sun's position is at the same place every same reading on the UTC clock, daily

According to me, the change to have only UTC but the usual traditional semi-diurnal clocks for all would be far more easy than the following:

1. To adapt to a time zone dependent Metric clock in the current decimal world.
2. To adapt to a time zone dependent diurnal clock with dours unit.
3. To accept dozenalism.

The reason I think strongly: the hours still will be hours, minutes still will be minutes. Any magnitude will not change in itself. Unlike a world where the SI units are force-fed so as to replace Imperial Units, where the banning of small prefixes (centi/deci/deca/hecto) is on the edge and leading to signify one's height as 1651 mm becoming a new norm, or as I may signify the distance from currently I am living, to New Delhi as 2*10^6 m or 2 Megameters rather than 2000 kms, where the last one would not be so cool.

If almost all of the world accepted weird large/small units to work and adjust with (maybe except the US), I can say for sure that atleast the UTC decimal/sexagesimal clock is acceptable to all where there is no change in the magnitude units, but only that an offset is applied to the local clocks to make the start of the day at same time all over the earth, which is again advantageous but only problem is that it can happen in the middle of the day and we have to get used to it.

The question then arises to strongly differentiate the words 'day'/'date'.

I can provide more reasons: both advantages/disadvantages to using/not-using the UTC/local clocks, the outcome for me isn't clear, as both clearly win the same intensity of arguments against/for them. The overall advantage currently is in favour of 'both', but maybe in future, it might be worth the change.

In a world without time zones, say the Time of 0900 hours won't mean a breakfast time for everyone, anymore. The 0900 may rather become an objective point in a day where different people around the world would do different things, usually.

The Time representation is just a number, with the important thing is if they can signify the position of the local sun by having a same time everywhere, your clocks do that.

One of my reasons against time zones is this: the time is the same for everyone. It doesn't changes in itself. The people of Japan are not living in the future (by almost a day) compared with people living in US i.e, the early position of the sun in the east doesn't mean they are not ahead of time compared to people in the west.

Meanwhile, I leave the other unmentioned examples for others to provide if they wish (both for/against them), as I tend not to go into details that may seem biased towards converting people to follow single time and abolish zones.

I am currently tempted to know about other opinions, atleast amongst the members of this forum, maybe Paul, as the creator of smile.gif could make a poll about who is/isn't in favour of abolishing time zones and why, or better as: how many people think using a single time for the whole earth is a better approach and why?

Posted by: Paul Rapoport Sep 21 2017, 05:27 PM
The clocks are updated now with many options for time band, in both Dozenal and Traditional formats. Too many?

Posted by: sunny Sep 22 2017, 02:32 PM
QUOTE (wendy.krieger @ Sep 12 2017, 04:13 PM)
UTC is no more difficult than adding a clock to the task bar, and putting UTC on it.  The forum runs on UTC, and you can always check current forum time.  Also there are other web services running on UTC, such as StackExchange.

And that UTC clock would be better if any element in it follows the sun for any given location, the clocks 3 and 4 do that.

Not to mention, again that time should be same for every place, the eastern people are not ahead of the "present" than the western ones, only because that sun's position is always delayed for them. The time here should be a continuity concept.

Although the clock might now have had minor bugs till now and as of now, and it's better to clear the cache and then reload it, if anything weird happens, but to my knowledge, any of them won't affect the operation of the clocks.

There might be many Time band offsets as of now, mostly kept in order for experimenting them, they provide the various resulting b/w and pos'n values, and most of them doesn't visually affect the arcs because they are rather small, some of them overlap with each other. The question would be: what time bands would benefit using them with these clocks in the real world? Should there be less? or they are good as they are? should there be more of them?

I personally think the option of 1 breather/biciaday is the only good option to make practical use of, that is as precise as the accuracy of sun's position would be, most might think 6 breathers is good because it's more familiar as the traditional hour unit and 1 dwell/unciaday is rather huge and the arcs jump 1 unciaturn for crossing the 12 borders of the bands all around the earth, 1 breather has 144 of them around the earth but has minor jump than the former when crossing such borders. Some might want them continuous, some might like some other but any option won't change the "time" outcome anyhow, the time will be the same all over the earth. It's now for others to decide for what the better choice(s) are. I hope there are many of them out there on this forum that has suggestions.

Edit: the time band offset options of 40, 30 are removed as of now, 60 has been kept. The default orientation of the clock is "origin top" as well.

The new reformed Munich longitude as a Prime Meridian passes through an important Building in the city that has longitude value of 11.5647 deg E, at the center of that structure. An improvisation by Paul, so that the resulting coordinate is tied with an actual existing structure rather than an imaginary line running along, thru it's antipode that crosses the least land. The longitude line that is antipode of Munich, -168.4353 still crosses the minimal land as ever. The difference in time outcome is anyhow very negligible.

Posted by: Paul Rapoport Oct 1 2017, 01:29 PM
Some further minor changes in the clocks. The complete range of time bands is available, from 100 trices down to 0.001. Some of the small ones can’t be very accurate or practical, and "Continuous" is only a theoretical possibility. Still, they're there for now for people to experiment with. Comments are encouraged.

A reminder that this set of clocks is valid with current decimal/sexagesimal as well as with dozenal, even if the dozenal are presented first and work better.

There's subtlety in this project, e.g. a formula that takes into consideration the Earth's oblate spheroid shape, and arcs changing color on the traditional clock faces. The primary coder for the whole project (local to me) is truly excellent.

The has been rewritten. I recommend looking at it first.

Sunny has generously provided many of the ideas used and much discussion, although he is of course not responsible for what you see.

Posted by: Paul Rapoport Oct 23 2017, 05:01 PM
I've now posted a It goes through a couple of elaborate examples. Most of it is in decimal, for the masses, but there's a chunk in dozenal, which runs much more smoothly, of course.

Throughout are questions, printed in Italics. Comments and answers are needed. I'm unsure whether UTC is better than what we do now. For many things it probably is, if not all. ???

Posted by: Paul Rapoport Nov 14 2017, 07:34 PM
Four more small bug fixes applied to the dozenal and decimal UTC clocks and the calculated data fields. Now the challenge is to find more bugs. I haven't been able to yet.

What’s new here is not UTC but the ability to try different time bands, there being no reason to stick with the theoretical time zone equivalent of 1 hour (60 trices). Different offsets from Greenwich time (or Munich time if preferred) result from the choice of time band, and of course different distances to travel east or west to encounter the next band, which also depend on latitude.

The question remains how UTC time bands, especially short ones, would affect and be used in daily life in many aspects.

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