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Pages: (2) 1 [2]  ( Go to first unread post )

 Universal Clocks, Dozenal And Traditional, for those time(zone)less moments
wendy.krieger
Posted: Sep 12 2017, 10:43 AM


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UTC is no more difficult than adding a clock to the task bar, and putting UTC on it. The forum runs on UTC, and you can always check current forum time. Also there are other web services running on UTC, such as StackExchange.

The current time here is Tues 7/53 (ie pm), the UTC is Tues 9.53 (ie am). So a whole day has gone, but UTC is only starting the day. The swap happens at 10 am. The Wikipedia updates at midnight, UTC, so we get the update at 10am.

I have tinkered around with some different time systems and how these might work.

The day of 40 demurs of 1000 hesits is a kind of metric time. The demur is then 10 grades of time, and we thus connect time to angle in the same way as dozenal systems.

It's best to avoid negative numbers, so you add a buffer at the date line, so that it is say, 100 grades ahead of zero time. The eastings then run across america, london (300), and finally Brisbane (470).

UTC at 10.0 is then 0.4166 days, or 16.66 demurs. The Zero time, by subtracting 30 to UTC, gives B6.666, where A, B, C, D are -1 ..-4. Adding 47.0 to this gives 33.66 demurs, which is local time.

The thing with demurs, is that you can restict the calculations to one digit, and use overflow (ie numbers greater than 40), on the previous day. It's like giving 0200 Thu as 2600 Mon. You could then use something like this, where zero-time is represented nowhere, but everywhere is some time earlier than true time (ie true time = local time - easting). The easting would then correspond to the longitude, and the time zone. But it is better to set the true-time to something off range to the local times.

You can do this with time, by allowing more than 24 hours in a day. You take local time, and add westing-ascession to it. Westing ascession is (180 - eE)/15, or (180+wW)/15. So here, we are 153 east, so the easting gives 27/15 or 1h 48m. Were I to add this to local time, of 20.35, i get 22.23, true-time.



Day and Date

If you don't do range-checking on something like day(yyyy,mm,dd), and simply allow the ranges to overflow as needed, you can use the same function to handle many different calendars. For example, the long count of days from 1900 is evaluated as (1900, 1, ddd), ie ddd JAN 1900.

I really don't reccomend having everywhere changing date at the same time, because it's not just a matter of morning or night, but anywhere in the day or night. I could as a matter of following daylight, get up at 8 pm Tues and go to bed at 8 am Wed. The day would change while I am awake.

On the other hand, I know reasonably that people work 9-5, and that their 9am is my 1 am, and their 5 pm is then my 9 am, and program accordingly. One way to overcome jetlag, is to live time according to the destination well before you arrive there. It's much harder to figure out when their clocks say the same time as yours.

The size of the time zones really has to do with how big an area you can get away with using the same clock. The china solution is not much use if the local time in Lhasa is used to work the banks etc (ie Open at 8 am, = 10 am Peking time, where the same action is 8 am in Peking).

Without any large-scale connections across a country, you can use local time, and this was the rule before the coming of railways. Aeroplanes use UTC, but their scope is that they can't really introduce localities until you're well past the terminal.


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Paul Rapoport
Posted: Sep 12 2017, 11:20 AM


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This project answers the question of what it may be like to have only a UTC clock. (Which ones, I don't know. A few more are coming. Others may decide what they like.)

It's also necessary to know other people's offset from UTC, not assuming that 1-hour bands are best, and to dispense with daylight saving time and the irregularities of the large time zones.

Even if it would be easier just to use digital readouts, the sometimes frustrating fun in this has been to determine how the hands move or don't move. They illustrate tracking a generalized version of how the sun appears to move relative to one's own position, including marking the day's phases and their continuity. Both of those should help when the date and day become separated.

Although all this is still an experiment, merely adding a UTC clock beside an existing local clock doesn't provide enough information.
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sunny
Posted: Sep 13 2017, 05:23 AM


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QUOTE (Paul Rapoport @ Sep 12 2017, 04:50 PM)
Although all this is still an experiment, merely adding a UTC clock beside an existing local clock doesn't provide enough information.

Which by the way already exists as the main clock and is still referenced by you as the 'prime clock' or 'Clock 1', and that should signify enough importance of it, even though if it's less helpful.

Not that the other clocks are of less importance. They might be more helpful for practical purposes, if not equal. smile.gif
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Paul Rapoport
Posted: Sep 13 2017, 02:46 PM


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Even Clock 1, the simplest, comes with important auxiliaries: choice of time band width, measured width of the band, and numbers showing the beginning of the overnight and afternoon phases. All of that is settable by the longitude and latitude chosen. And of course all in dozenal and traditional formats, with still more choices I haven't mentioned.

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Paul Rapoport
Posted: Sep 18 2017, 02:22 AM


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Latest expansion of the clocks is now up, here. There are 8 clocks, 16 if you include both dozenal and traditional, or 128 if you include all the major options (therefore 64 in dozenal only).

I haven't a clear idea how we got this far, from a simple basic idea: a UTC dozenal clock. Many discoveries along the way, and an elaborate and I suppose unique result, notably odder than the dozenal clocks and calendar I've produced over the past few years.

Sunny in Bengaluru has been perceptive and helpful throughout the process (worth repeating).

The big question: can people live on UTC? The time everywhere is the same but any sun position has different times in distant places --- as opposed to the current system, in which the time is different in distant places but any sun position has the same time everywhere (more or less).

I intend to write about this in detail at some point. Dozenal timekeeping makes the discussion much easier.
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sunny
Posted: Sep 19 2017, 07:14 PM


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The dozenal clocks that has explained earlier has been slightly changed as mentioned above by Paul. So, I deleted my previous post in order to modify the summary again:

No. of Clocks:

Technically, there is only one diurnal universal clock that shows the same UTC time everywhere (Greenwich/Munich Time, whichever is chosen. The Munich time is reformed longitude corresponding to 46.2588 minutes ahead of Greenwich) and all the other clocks are again, technically the same UTC clock but they are different in the sense on how the same UTC clock is displayed for them. This same clock can be 2 different clocks, one with continuous rotating background/clock-face once per day and the other is the usual, without the rotating background, each again multiplied by 2 to provide 4 clocks if you consider one of them having a fixed hand/0 always at either the selected top/bottom position on the clock, and the other one where that moving hand/0 follows the sun at your place, which would bring the count to 4 clocks. Here, the fixed hand is for rotating background clocks and the fixed 0 is for stationary background clocks. The 8 clocks are again only about how the arcs are displayed, that represent the phase of the day, where the 4 clocks with 'a' means keeping them stationary and 'b' means they would be in movement.

(There are four other clocks which are the usual traditional ones that tries to mimic these dozenal clocks which could aid in understanding how the dozenal clocks with diurnal universal time works, mostly for people who don't know the clocks for concept of dozenal direct divisions of the day. But if you are here on the forum already familiar with usual dozenal clocks with diurnal time, you don't need to look at the traditional clocks.)

Here's the short description on all clocks:

Let's take the example by selecting the 'Greenwich' option and the 'clockwise' movement of the hands:

1. Clock 1: Is the usual dozenal clock which shows Greenwich time, hence the small hand follows the sun as if it is near/at Greenwich (or any place that it shares its longitude with).

2. Clock 2: This clock, same as Clock 1 but its background/face is rotated continuously once a day (in the anticlockwise direction) but in such a way that the smallest hand appears stationary and is fixed pointing always at the bottom. The rotating '0' appears to be following the sun (but anticlockwise) as if the clock is at/near Greenwich (or any place that it shares its longitude with).

3. Clock 3: Is same as clock 1 but the background/face is rotated and fixed at some angle in such a way that the smallest hand will follow the sun at your place.

4. Clock 4: Is same as Clock 2, but the stationary hand is not necessarily fixed at bottom, but is fixed at some angle in such a way that the rotating '0' follows the sun (again, anticlockwise) at your place.

There are two options as 'a' and 'b'. If you select the clock with 'a', the arcs are stationary, hence the moving elements (either small hand or numeral 0, that is moving) will be indicating the correct local phase and if 'b' is selected, the arcs are rotated once a day, hence the stationary elements (either small hand or numeral 0, that is stationary) will be pointing at the correct local phase. I personally prefer 'a' clocks, as they are comparatively easy to grasp than 'b' ones, for amateurs.

There are clockwise and anticlockwise direction options for hands direction movement. The '0' can be placed at 'top' position for Clock 1, or smallest fixed hand at 'top' position for Clock 2. Labelled as the 'top/bottom origin', the bottom origin as for Greenwich midnight date change and top origin as the Date line noon date change, where but both happen simultaneously, so there is no change in the 'Universal Time'.

So if you select the 'origin top', all clocks would behave as if they are considered the Date line as the prime meridian and the date would change there at its noon. For Munich selected option, the date line is its corresponding antipode near the antipode of Greenwich precisely 11.5647 degrees to its right.

There is another dropdown menu as 'time band', with various options such as 1 dwell/unciaday, 1 breather/biciaday etc to name a few where the change of phases are pointed to these rounded time mark for start of the phases of exact point of noon, midnight, sunrise and sunset of your place, they would be rounded to nearest dozenal universal time that are by increments of applied options. Your place can be at any location where those exact time vary and hence should be rounded off to the nearest rounded universal time because even 1 degree of movement in eastward/westward direction on earth makes the sun's position differ by 4 minutes, and thus selecting an option as 'continuous' for such would not round off any phases with the nearest time.

There are lot of Time band options that can be selected in order to get the corresponding band width and position (b/w and pos'n) at your place, and the latter depends upon the origin top/bottom chosen. The b/w is the valid width boundary in east-west direction corresponding to the selected time band, and pos'n is the % calculated by dividing the length/angle of the nearest longitude boundary (which is towards the chosen origin side) by the total length/angle of the b/w.

The location coordinates that is shown/entered in the main page is only taken as offset from traditional Greenwich meridian and won't be changed when selected to the Munich Meridian option.

QUOTE
The big question: can people live on UTC? The time everywhere is the same but any sun position has different times in distant places --- as opposed to the current system, in which the time is different in distant places but any sun position has the same time everywhere (more or less).


Due to increased Globalization in any near future: There might be a practical chance towards abolishing time zones, and people could adapt to them. Currently, the flights and pilots use UTC Military Time for the air travel which is the fastest on earth, where they may enter into various time zones anywhere on earth within a day, the sun may rise/set many times within a day for astronauts working at ISS, but for a specific person on earth confined to a location, the sun's position is at the same place every same reading on the UTC clock, daily

According to me, the change to have only UTC but the usual traditional semi-diurnal clocks for all would be far more easy than the following:

1. To adapt to a time zone dependent Metric clock in the current decimal world.
2. To adapt to a time zone dependent diurnal clock with dours unit.
3. To accept dozenalism.

The reason I think strongly: the hours still will be hours, minutes still will be minutes. Any magnitude will not change in itself. Unlike a world where the SI units are force-fed so as to replace Imperial Units, where the banning of small prefixes (centi/deci/deca/hecto) is on the edge and leading to signify one's height as 1651 mm becoming a new norm, or as I may signify the distance from currently I am living, to New Delhi as 2*10^6 m or 2 Megameters rather than 2000 kms, where the last one would not be so cool.

If almost all of the world accepted weird large/small units to work and adjust with (maybe except the US), I can say for sure that atleast the UTC decimal/sexagesimal clock is acceptable to all where there is no change in the magnitude units, but only that an offset is applied to the local clocks to make the start of the day at same time all over the earth, which is again advantageous but only problem is that it can happen in the middle of the day and we have to get used to it.

The question then arises to strongly differentiate the words 'day'/'date'.

I can provide more reasons: both advantages/disadvantages to using/not-using the UTC/local clocks, the outcome for me isn't clear, as both clearly win the same intensity of arguments against/for them. The overall advantage currently is in favour of 'both', but maybe in future, it might be worth the change.

In a world without time zones, say the Time of 0900 hours won't mean a breakfast time for everyone, anymore. The 0900 may rather become an objective point in a day where different people around the world would do different things, usually.

The Time representation is just a number, with the important thing is if they can signify the position of the local sun by having a same time everywhere, your clocks do that.

One of my reasons against time zones is this: the time is the same for everyone. It doesn't changes in itself. The people of Japan are not living in the future (by almost a day) compared with people living in US i.e, the early position of the sun in the east doesn't mean they are not ahead of time compared to people in the west.

Meanwhile, I leave the other unmentioned examples for others to provide if they wish (both for/against them), as I tend not to go into details that may seem biased towards converting people to follow single time and abolish zones.

I am currently tempted to know about other opinions, atleast amongst the members of this forum, maybe Paul, as the creator of Those wonderful Universal Clocks smile.gif could make a poll about who is/isn't in favour of abolishing time zones and why, or better as: how many people think using a single time for the whole earth is a better approach and why?
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Paul Rapoport
Posted: Sep 21 2017, 05:27 PM


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The clocks are updated now with many options for time band, in both Dozenal and Traditional formats. Too many?
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sunny
Posted: Sep 22 2017, 02:32 PM


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QUOTE (wendy.krieger @ Sep 12 2017, 04:13 PM)
UTC is no more difficult than adding a clock to the task bar, and putting UTC on it. The forum runs on UTC, and you can always check current forum time. Also there are other web services running on UTC, such as StackExchange.

And that UTC clock would be better if any element in it follows the sun for any given location, the clocks 3 and 4 do that.

Not to mention, again that time should be same for every place, the eastern people are not ahead of the "present" than the western ones, only because that sun's position is always delayed for them. The time here should be a continuity concept.

Although the clock might now have had minor bugs till now and as of now, and it's better to clear the cache and then reload it, if anything weird happens, but to my knowledge, any of them won't affect the operation of the clocks.

There might be many Time band offsets as of now, mostly kept in order for experimenting them, they provide the various resulting b/w and pos'n values, and most of them doesn't visually affect the arcs because they are rather small, some of them overlap with each other. The question would be: what time bands would benefit using them with these clocks in the real world? Should there be less? or they are good as they are? should there be more of them?

I personally think the option of 1 breather/biciaday is the only good option to make practical use of, that is as precise as the accuracy of sun's position would be, most might think 6 breathers is good because it's more familiar as the traditional hour unit and 1 dwell/unciaday is rather huge and the arcs jump 1 unciaturn for crossing the 12 borders of the bands all around the earth, 1 breather has 144 of them around the earth but has minor jump than the former when crossing such borders. Some might want them continuous, some might like some other but any option won't change the "time" outcome anyhow, the time will be the same all over the earth. It's now for others to decide for what the better choice(s) are. I hope there are many of them out there on this forum that has suggestions.

Edit: the time band offset options of 40, 30 are removed as of now, 60 has been kept. The default orientation of the clock is "origin top" as well.

The new reformed Munich longitude as a Prime Meridian passes through an important Building in the city that has longitude value of 11.5647 deg E, at the center of that structure. An improvisation by Paul, so that the resulting coordinate is tied with an actual existing structure rather than an imaginary line running along, thru it's antipode that crosses the least land. The longitude line that is antipode of Munich, -168.4353 still crosses the minimal land as ever. The difference in time outcome is anyhow very negligible.
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Paul Rapoport
Posted: Oct 1 2017, 01:29 PM


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Some further minor changes in the clocks. The complete range of time bands is available, from 100 trices down to 0.001. Some of the small ones cant be very accurate or practical, and "Continuous" is only a theoretical possibility. Still, they're there for now for people to experiment with. Comments are encouraged.

A reminder that this set of clocks is valid with current decimal/sexagesimal as well as with dozenal, even if the dozenal are presented first and work better.

There's subtlety in this project, e.g. a formula that takes into consideration the Earth's oblate spheroid shape, and arcs changing color on the traditional clock faces. The primary coder for the whole project (local to me) is truly excellent.

The About file has been rewritten. I recommend looking at it first.

Sunny has generously provided many of the ideas used and much discussion, although he is of course not responsible for what you see.
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Paul Rapoport
Posted: Oct 23 2017, 05:01 PM


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I've now posted a guide to using UTC. It goes through a couple of elaborate examples. Most of it is in decimal, for the masses, but there's a chunk in dozenal, which runs much more smoothly, of course.

Throughout are questions, printed in Italics. Comments and answers are needed. I'm unsure whether UTC is better than what we do now. For many things it probably is, if not all. ???
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Paul Rapoport
Posted: Nov 14 2017, 07:34 PM


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Four more small bug fixes applied to the dozenal and decimal UTC clocks and the calculated data fields. Now the challenge is to find more bugs. I haven't been able to yet.

Whats new here is not UTC but the ability to try different time bands, there being no reason to stick with the theoretical time zone equivalent of 1 hour (60 trices). Different offsets from Greenwich time (or Munich time if preferred) result from the choice of time band, and of course different distances to travel east or west to encounter the next band, which also depend on latitude.

The question remains how UTC time bands, especially short ones, would affect and be used in daily life in many aspects.

Using the clocks
Using UTC
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