Fear Aggression in 13 month old BC, Fear Aggression progressively worsening

Hi there,

I've not been on here for a while - Cass has developed in to a beautifully behaved girl and at 13 months has a fantastic recall, sit, stay, down, crawl etc, her bite inhibition finally kicked in and we have overcome her fear of travelling in cars and herding both cars and people.

However, after an incident at Christmas where she was attacked by my mum in laws dog drawing blood, she has become very fearful of other dogs - she seemed to be making real progress until her walk this morning - we bumped into two labs she normally plays with on our local field who were playing with four collies. She was fine with the Labs and one of the Collies, but as they played closer to the others the fear kicked in and she started snarling and snapping. I've never seen her that bad, I believe it was probably connected to the number of dogs as she has not played in groups of more than 4 (including her).

Luckily, the lady who has the collies was kind enough to stop and chat to us, so we stayed within about 5 feet of the collies for at least 15 minutes talking, Cass barking and lunging periodically (but we avoided the 'positive reinforcement' of removing Cass from the situation, and after she lunged, I would ask her to sit THEN reward her)

I've booked her straight in to a 5 week socialization and obedience class for older dogs, but suggestions for anything I can do in between these classed would be very gratefully received.

headwallbash

If she was only snapping and snarling, I wouldn't assume she wants to rip other dogs to smitherines. It sounded more like a simple escalation of threat signals thats all. Perhaps the way the other dogs were playing was overwelming for her. Wren was face to face with a male boxer a couple of weeks ago and, being rather rude, the boxer decided to lift his front paw and bash her on the muzzle with it....well, as you can imagine, it didn't go down well and he got a good telling off. I actually couldn't help but laugh at the time because Wren was obviously REALLY unimpressed at being bashed in the face with a paw.

You can continue to use reward around other dogs...being onlead definitely puts Wren on a more defensive level so I have her offlead wherever possible. She's not been properly attacked herself, Sleet has and she's still much more confident with other dogs than Wren, so it might just be having a lower threshold for rudeness as opposed to trauma from a previous attack. I find Wren is better in more open areas too than when we're stuck in a more confined area with less room such as a narrow path with dense vegetation on each side. It's quite common in BC bitches in my experience....despite Wren meeting many dogs from being a puppy, she's always been on the shy side with other dogs but can make friends with polite dogs and can even get used to slightly rude dogs over time if she keeps on meeting them...partly because they learn what NOT to do around her. I don't think anything is going to really alter that to be honest....she'll never be tolerant of rude dogs but I know she won't hurt them so I don't get into a flap if she tells a dog off....sometimes if I know she's about to tell a dog off, I will encourage her away in a lighthearted manner....

Thank you for your reply Canis-Lupess, I really appreciate it waggingd I don't think for a minute she would have actually attacked (she lunges in and runs away again) I've just never seen her that scared :(

I wish I'd seen the Boxer incident - I bet he was shocked!

Thanks again x

"and after she lunged, I would ask her to sit THEN reward her)"

Cass. I may be misunderstanding you here but it appears that she lunged, you asked her to sit and then rewarded her. What were you rewarding? The sit or the lunge sit?

In my opinion it is better to stop the lunge as soon as you see her start to wind up and then reward as opposed to reward a lunge-sit scenario



*sheep(

I absolutely agree - there would preferably be no lunging/barking whatsoever, but there is next to no warning of her being about to freak out.

She wasn't rewarded for a lunge sit - I wan't the behaviour to stop! dogbite

If it was a screenplay it would be like this;

Cass: Lunge/bark
Me: Cass! That'll Do! (sharp tone)
Cass: Stops barking/lunging
Me: Cass - Sit (normal tone of voice and hand signal for sit)
Cass: Sits
Me: Good girl (reward)

Repeat... and so on!

Actually, she will be very likely giving off more subtle signals before she lunges. The lunging is only the next stage on if the more subtle signals do not work. You have to learn to look out for these other signals. In all dogs I've seen lunge, they always display other signs first that they are going to lunge...it's all about communicating with the other dog.

The "That'll do", in sharp tone will only suppress the outward symptom of her anxiety for that moment but it won't help in the long run. For starters, she'll learn to associate a negative response from you with the presence of other dogs making her even more anxious...plus anything that involves supressing behaviour will contribute to creating a ticking timb bomb....it won't lessen the inner problem or make it go away...if she's prevented from using threat signals in this manner, she may skip straight to biting in future instead...and this time without warning because she's been punished for giving off warnings. You need to try and avoid situations where you think she may want to lunge...the more she does it, the more she's rehearsing the behaviour.

Understood. To be honest, I think if the other lady had just been happy to let them get on with it we'd have been ok and no doubt Cass was picking up that I was getting somewhat peeved off at being told she obviously does not get enough excercise as she is from working stock and have I considered giving her up for adoption...grrr... as if.

The last thing I want to do is suppress her instincts and cause further problems, so on one of our walks this morning we stayed at the bottom of the field playing ball with the launcher while the collie-lady walked her 4 across the path at the top. Cass knew they were there, but has a one track mind when it comes to tennis balls :)

I'm really hoping socialization in a controlled environment (however long it takes) will help her confidence as opposed to smothering the behaviour until she gets so wound up that she snaps.

Thanks again for the advice, it is gratefully received and had already given me inspiration for helping her overcome her issues and get her back to being the confident pup she was before she was bitten.

Cass, CL is quite right about the signals prior to the behaviour. If you can spot them thn your battle is half won! CL and I have different views about using "no" or similar command but as no one size fits all it is worthwhile considering your options. As such, i think it is right that a dog should recognise "no" (or similar command) and equally recognise that it is a demand to stop unwanted behaviour. So, would give a "no" type command ("That will do" is standard sheep dog recall command) and then when dog has responded give a sit or down etc command and then reward but make sure that there is a break in between the two commands so the dog realises that the reward is for the second and not the first. However, you must work in the way that best fits you but I am sure that you will get the problem under control.

*sheep(

Just a thought, but the below could all be useful and give you ideas and a plan to follow to help Cass:

Click to Calm: http://www.canineconcepts.co.uk/item--Clic...lickcalm---dogs
excellent book on aggression in dogs, whether that is reactivity, fear etc. There are lots of good step by step and easy to follow exercises to adjust Cass' response to other dogs approaching etc. As with any book etc, you can take what is most appropriate to your situation.

Control Unleashed: http://www.canineconcepts.co.uk/item--Cont...nleashed---dogs
another great book that helps with reactivity. again there are some step by step exercises (this one assumes prior knowledge of clicker training). It was originally developed for use with reactive dogs in a dog sports environment, but many have used the "Look at that" game for all kinds of reactivity issues outside of agility etc. I really like this book as all the exercises are like 'games' so as far as the dog is concerned, just a fun game to play with you but they are actually learning to be less reactive at the same time.

There is a really good explanation of "look at that" training online somewhere - I will try and find it. Meanwhile if you google it, or control unleashed games you will probably get lots of info on it anyway.

Hope that helps.

Just be careful. In the UK there are no regulations - a trainer needs no experience or qualifications to run classes - they just need to believe they know how to train dogs. Sometimes you can land lucky, but sometimes these classes can destroy your dogs - you need to look carefully to check what is being offered and decide if it will actually be helpful. You do need to look into classes and training methods quite closely.

eg - putting a naughty child into a room full of naughty children so they can learn to calm down and to trust people would very obviously do more harm then good.

Always work within her comfort zone and to build her up.

Good luck - and they can go through funny little sages as they mature.


I've heard some respectable trainers being against the look at that game - largely for the same reason as some are against clicker training. Because f you get the click or 'look' in too late you can capture the wrong attitude - ( same goes for punishment training lol ) Anything that needs us to respond to correct or praise we have to time it right. lol.

But imo the Look at it game is fab - my nervy dog loves it. I play it rather like I'd play I-spy with a toddler. As soon as I sayu ooooh where's the people - his face lights up! but if he sees the people first and starts panting I've missed the moment.

To revive an old argument I still firmly believe we must look at our natural reaction in a crisis and see what we naturally do/say and train the dog to respond possitively to this. If when things all go pear-shaped we scream in terror or yell ,no, them train the dog to respond to this. in a crisis if we have to stop to think before we issue a command we can miss the moment and be too late.

I had an incident recently in an unpredicted situation that I hadn't trained for and I simply failed to get out any command bacause the options I could have used in that situation were too wide - which do I use? if only I had taught an all universal 'no' instead of the fowerful arrangement of sweet happy sounds I taught my dogs!

Keep things simple, clear and avoid getting tied up in knots.

I wouldn't use "No" as a suppressor or any other word or sound used to suppress behaviour in a case like this. With a dog showing aggression, this is extremely dangerous. To the dog, showing warning signs to another they don't want near them in not wrong and never will be...they don't live by human standards remember and are unable to grasp the concept of them. They are simply acting on their emotional response to the stimulus. This only cases more anxiety and often makes the aggression even more intense in most cases. Definitely a REALLY BAD thing to do. Doing this is no more than anthropomorphizing the dog and applying human ethics, standards and morals to our attempt to communicate with them...which is hardly going to work because dogs will never grasp any of these.

The only way to treat a dog like this is to address the underlying cause, not suppress the symptom.

Here is an article about why you should never punish growling:

The "Gift" of Growling: Why you should never punish a dog for growling.

By Pat Miller

Clients always appear a bit stunned at first when I tell them their dog's growl is a good thing. In fact, a growl is something to be greatly treasured.


A professional dog trainer or behaviorist can help you learn to see and interpret the signals your dog uses to try to tell you that he is uncomfortable, so you can remove the stressor - or at least, remove the dog from a stressful situation.

These are my aggression consultation clients, who are in my office in desperation, as a last resort, hoping to find some magic pill that will turn their biting dog into a safe companion. They are often dismayed and alarmed to discover that the paradigm many of us grew up with - punish your dog harshly at the first sign of aggression - has contributed to and exacerbated the serious and dangerous behavior problem that has led them to my door.

It seems intuitive to punish growling. Growling leads to biting, and dogs who bite people often must be euthanized, so let's save our dog's life and nip biting in the bud by punishing him at the first sign of inappropriate behavior. It makes sense, in a way - but when you have a deeper understanding of canine aggression, it's easy to understand why it's the absolute wrong thing to do.

Communication efforts

Most dogs don't want to bite or fight. The behaviors that signal pending aggression are intended first and foremost to warn away a threat. The dog who doesn't want to bite or fight tries his hardest to make you go away. He may begin with subtle signs of discomfort that are often overlooked by many humans - tension in body movements, a stiffly wagging tail.

"Please," he says gently, "I don't want you to be here."

If you continue to invade his comfort zone, his threats may intensify, with more tension, a hard stare, and a low growl.

"I mean it," he says more firmly, "I want you to leave."

If those are ignored, he may become more insistent, with an air snap, a bump of the nose, or even open mouth contact that closes gently on an arm but doesn't break skin.

"Please," he says, "don't make me bite you."

If that doesn't succeed in convincing you to leave, the dog may feel compelled to bite hard enough to break skin in his efforts to protect self, territory, members of his social group, or other valuable resources.

Caused by stress
What many people don't realize is that aggression is caused by stress.

The stressor may be related to pain, fear, intrusion, threats to resources, past association, or anticipation of any of these things. An assertive, aggressive dog attacks because he's stressed by the intrusion of another dog or human into his territory. A fearful dog bites because he's stressed by the approach of a human. An injured dog lacerates the hand of his rescuer because he's stressed by pain.

When you punish a growl or other early warning signs, you may succeed in suppressing the growl, snarl, snap, or other warning behavior - but you don't take away the stress that caused the growl in the first place. In fact, you increase the stress, because now you, the dog's owner, have become unpredictable and violent as well.

Once you learn the triggers that make your dog uncomfortable, you can try to keep them at a distance.

Worst of all, and most significantly, if you succeed in suppressing the warning signs, you end up with a dog who bites without warning. He has learned that it's not safe to warn, so he doesn't.

If a dog is frightened of children, he may growl when a child approaches. You, conscientious and responsible owner, are well aware of the stigma - and fate - of dogs who bite children, so you punish your dog with a yank on the leash and a loud "No! Bad dog!" Every time your dog growls at a child you do this, and quickly your dog's fear of children is confirmed - children do make bad things happen! He likes children even less, but he learns not to growl at them to avoid making you turn mean.

You think he's learned that it's not okay to be aggressive to children, because the next time one passes by, there's no growl.

"Phew," you think to yourself. "We dodged that bullet!"

Convinced that your dog now accepts children because he no longer growls at them, the next time one approaches and asks if he can pat your dog, you say yes. In fact, your dog has simply learned not to growl, but children still make him very uncomfortable. Your dog is now super-stressed, trying to control his growl as the child gets nearer and nearer so you don't lose control and punish him, but when the scary child reaches out for him he can't hold back any longer - he lunges forward and snaps at the child's face. Fortunately, you're able to restrain him with the leash so he doesn't connect. You, the dog, and the child are all quite shaken by the incident.

It's time to change your thinking.


"Help!"

A growl is a dog's cry for help. It's your dog's way of telling you he can't tolerate a situation - as if he's saying, "I can't handle this, please get me out of here!"

Your first response when you hear your dog growl should be to calmly move him away from the situation, while you make a mental note of what you think may have triggered the growl. Make a graceful exit. If you act stressed you'll only add to his stress and make a bite more, not less, likely. Don't worry that removing him rewards his aggression; your first responsibility is to keep others safe and prevent him from biting.

If the growl was triggered by something you were doing, stop doing it.

Yes, your dog learned one tiny lesson about how to make you stop doing something he doesn't like, but you'll override that when you do lots of lessons about how that thing that made him uncomfortable makes really, really good stuff happen.

This is where counter-conditioning comes in. Your dog growls because he has a negative association with something - say he growls when you touch his paw. For some reason, he's convinced that having his paw touched is a bad thing. If you start by touching his knee, then feeding him a smidgen of chicken, and keep repeating that, he'll come to think that you touching his knee makes chicken happen. He'll want you to touch his leg so he gets a bit of chicken.


Note: Make sure your dog's discomfort with you touching his paw is not related to pain. If it hurts when you touch him there, counter-conditioning won't work. It's a good idea to get a full veterinary workup if there's any chance your dog's growling may be pain-related.


When you see him eagerly search for chicken when you touch his knee, you can move your hand lightly lower and touch there, until you get the same "Where's my chicken?!" response at the new spot. Gradually move closer and closer to his paw, until he's delighted to have you touch his foot - it makes chicken happen! Now practice with each foot, until he's uniformly delighted to have you touch all of them. Remember that the touch comes first, so it consistently predicts the imminent arrival of chicken.

Counter-conditioning and desensitization teaches the dog that it is rewarding to stay calm in the face of stress.

If at any time in the process - which could take days, weeks, or even months, depending on the dog and how well you apply the protocol - you see the dog's tension increase, you've moved too quickly. Back up a few inches to where he's comfortable being touched and start again. Or, there may be other stressors present that are increasing his tension. Do an environment check to be sure nothing else is happening that's adding to his stress. Have the rowdy grandkids leave the room, give him a little time to relax, and start again.


Remember, dogs can't tell us in words what's bothering them, but they can communicate a lot with their body language and canine vocal sounds. Pay attention to what your dog is telling you. Listen with heart and compassion. Be gentle when your dog tells you he needs help. Come to his rescue. Treasure his growl.

From what I understand, it cant really go that wrong, even if your timing is a bit off, thats the beauty of it...this very thing was discussed and explained online somewhere...must find that link! I wonder what these trainers would recommend though as an alternative?

Ah, I thought about this once when mags was younger and she ran off in the park after rabbits! 'Leave' didnt work, I knew her recall command wasnt going to work in mid-chase as she was going through naughty adolescence, we were only just training her emergency STOP so that wasnt going to work and she was too far away to use her emergency down too as she was quite young then so it wasnt like it is now...so by this time she was right on the other side of the bloody field and I just shouted 'MAGGIE' as loud as I possibly could!!...and she came back.

I had luckily trained her name as an attention cue right from a baby which generally means "pay attention to me as I'm going to ask you to do something" but it also serves as my "im having a stupid moment and you might be in danger so I need to shout something but i cant think what" cue!! :) ...because we always do fun stuff and "work" when i use her name she is really attentive to it.

Of course, if 'no' was trained in the same way, then that could be used too - or 'bananas', or 'STOP' or 'shit'! Lol! ...like you said, whatever word would come to mind most easily to the individual.

Sorry going a bit off topic there - forgot which thread I was in!...back to the original problem with Cass - as CL says above, 'no' or any variation of the stuff above isnt really appropriate by the sound of it for this situation though anyway - thats more for emergency stuff.

For Cass, if a situation creeps up and you don't know what to do as you hadnt noticed until too late, so she starts lunging etc, I would be inclined to just suddenly make out like I had the most interesting thing in the world in my hand or "just over there" and make a huge fuss about it and jog off to a spot further away happily encouraging the dog along with me. Really thats just a distraction and all thats needed in this situation to get the dog to calm down - but this isn't training and wont adjust the behaviour in the long-term.

Kind of a similar thing here which can be used in conjunction with Look at That (LAT) is "Get outta dodge", for those times when she reacts before you realise whats happening and you just need to get away/calm her down...you can practice beforehand for the situation even:
http://pawsitivedawgs.wordpress.com/2010/1...tingouttadodge/ (scroll down to Get Outta Dodge heading)

This is a handy little guide to follow on Behaviour Adjustment Training (BAT) and talks specificially about reducing fear and agression in dogs by giving dogs alternative (socially acceptable) ways to communicate their needs.

http://ahimsadogtraining.com/handouts/BAT-basics.pdf

There is a lot more info out there on the internet about BAT if you google it too.

Lots of variations on the same kind of basic concepts have been suggested so far, so have a look through them all and just see what fits with you and your circumstances best.

Good luck and let us know how you get on!

I agree that the fallout from going wrong with a clicker will be far less dire than going wrong with corrections...and timing is key in both...so it doesn't make sense to criticize the clicker for needing precise timing when corrections need precise timing also and with worse possible results by far if you get it wrong....and most people do.

If "No" is taught as a cue to do something like freeze and is taught using +R, then I have no issue with it. It doesn't need to be said firmly if taught that way because the dog wants to comply if it's taught properly. It's not the word itself I have an issue with, it's the way most people use it. Most people just use it to suppress behaviour though, as a threat of intimidation to scare the dog out of doing the behaviour and expect the dog to automatically understand what it means. Doesn't stop the dog from wanting to do the behaviour even if it stops the dog at that moment though and will only suppress it whilst you're there and watching...the dog will still do it if you are not there or not watching etc...this is why people I know who correct their dogs for growling at others have to keep doing so over and over every single time their dog meets another and I see the dog getting progressively worse over time. Seen it way too often. Where simple annoying behaviours such as jumping up or scavenging are concerned, corrections will just cause the dog to do the behaviour more secretly or even encourage it because attention is given like with jumping up....but where aggression is concerned, it really is a dangerous thing to do or to be advising people to do.

I use my positive interrupter to get my dogs back to me quickly where I need to and as they return to me instantly when hearing it, it is far better than using "No" as suppressor even if it actually suppressed the behaviour. Their name should get their attention too as Maggie says...or you didn't teach their name properly and also most likely overuse it...and many owners do overuse their dogs names.

I might add that, compared to many other dog owners I know who do use "No", I am still able to have better control and prevent my dogs from doing unwanted things by not using it than they do by using it. Speaks for itself.

Wow! You are all so very very helpful and I can't thank you enough so I'll try my best to address the points you have all raised;

Oldshep - The use of 'that'll do' came about when she was a young pup - she was chasing a jogger across the field snapping at his heels (going through her herding people stage) and I had been researching herding in order to better understand the behaviour as she comes from a line of working dogs. I tried called 'come' to no avail then out of desperation 'Cass! That'll do!' and she turned and came happily trotting back to my side so ever since, we have used it to mean stop chasing/running off/herding and return calmly to my side. I rarely use 'no' unless in conjunction with something else like 'no jumping' or 'no shouting' (when I am sweeping up outside and she barks as she wants to chase the broom).

Alternative commands for fear aggression circumstances would be appreciated :)

Maggie - Canine Concepts is in my bookmarks, it's a very good site. I've never tried clicker training as Cass responds best to reward by way of play, physical contact and vocal praise but we've been able to implement some clicker methods by way of vocal praise, so I'm doing my research! Also the wordpress site and BAT are fantastically helpful.

Tenaj - I share your concerns about dog trainers (hence not doing it sooner) so I discussed with them the circumstances surrounding my contacting them. They use positive reinforcement, but if we get there and it's not right for Cass then we'll be off again sharpish.

Canis-Lupess - I read 'the gift of growling' a good while ago now and agree with it 100% and it sprung straight to mind when the lady with the 4 collies said 'you have to stop her barking, you'll get complaints!' If she barks in the house she's doing it for a reason - she can hear something, see someone and she is worried. As soon as I go to her and acknowledge her concerns and speak to her gently she will stop and calm down and when she is ready she'll get on with whatever she was doing before.

I want to let you know as well that I am a big fan of positive reinforcement and not shouting or punishment and want to turn negatives in to positives in a positive and encouraging manner.

Thanks again *doggiehug*