Naughty Duke

[Merlin]

We had 5 arguments between Duke ( 7.5 months BC ) and Charlie ( 5 year old border terrier) over the last week or so, most of the time it's been over food or a chew but today I was stroking Duke and Charlie walked into the room and Duke just went at him.

I have never had this problem before with my other dogs . Can anyone give me some advice on how I should deal with Duke could it just be his age ?

Thanks

Julie :-(

[Grimalkin]

Sounds like a classic case of resource guarding!

Regarding the food and chews, just make sure the dogs are not in a position where this can happen. Keep them seperate when feeding, don't give Duke the opportunity to repeat the behaviour, and take away any unfinished chews.

As far as you are concerned, only pet and interact with Duke when Charlie is in the room, this will change Duke's response to Charlie's presence. He will no longer be a threat and the reason petting stops, but the reason it starts. Charlie being close means good stuff happens to Duke!

Keep the interaction calm and avoid shouting if it kicks off as you will only be cheering Duke on in his eyes. Just get up and walk away (if it is safe to do so).

[michelle18]

This sounds very much like what I went through between Rory, who would have been around Duke's age, and my late dog Charlie who would have been about 11ish. If I would be sat on the sofa stroking Rory an Charlie came in he would have a go at him. I broke this habit by not necessarily over petting Rory. So I would let Charlie near before I would pet Rory. If Rory growled etc, I would just get up and move away.

Another good trick is to have maybe a treat available, and when you stroke Duke and he makes eye contact with Charlie but doesn't react then reward him. It is just an age thing, because eventually when I had Rory castrated and he matured he stopped the 'going for him' and just did a little grizzle and it got to the point that he would just move away from Charlie himself.

On the other hand it could just be in the name... Charlies are asking for trouble Lol!

[Merlin]

Thanks for both of your replies very helpful and encouraging. :-)


Maybe your right Charlie's are just little trouble makers LOL. :-p

[Merlin]

My problem is not improving it seems to be getting worse everytime Charlie comes near me Duke is going for him. I have started removing Duke from the room if he is growling at Charlie but so far this has had no effect at all. Its so upsetting and frustrating I am trying to keep calm but my husband is not happy at all .

What age did you have Rory castrated ?

Thanks :cry: Julie

[Merlin]

A quick update

My dog trainer asked me last Thurs to bring both Charlie and Duke to class so she can see how they interacted. Ann's opinion was that its not a guarding issue but a collie herding problem.

We went for a lovely walk yesterday on the beach with over 20 dogs no problems at all. I thought I was going to get through a whole day without a fight but no in the evening Duke was in the front room and Charlie came in nice and calm and Duke just went for him. *sad*

[Merlin]

Things have not improved very much so Duke is going in for his op tomorrow.

[Merlin]

Duke's back from the vets a little sore but having a nice sleep.

[oldshep]

Is the “herding instinct” a problem in Border Collies? The breed has been developed to do just that!
I worry about trainers who say that herding is a “problem” although appreciate it has to be put in context of the rest of the conversation. However, I see lots of Border Collies with herding instinct but very few that will attack (apparently) unprovoked and I would question if this is really the problem. Did your trainer give any further explanation?

*sheep(

[Merlin]

Sorry forgot to say I had a friend from agility come around to my house to see what she thought of Duke's problems she did dog behaviour as a job a few years ago. Her thoughts were the same as mine Duke is guarding me but she also pointed out he was not only guarding me but the whole family from Charlie.


Bev advice is I have got to stop Duke from demanding attention and stop him from laying right by me all the time . She has showed me a few things to improve my leadership skills between Duke and Charlie ie push Duke gently away for me and called Charlie to me and make a fuss of Charlie and then (or if ) Duke relaxes to praise him to.

We did have a incident this weekend on a lovely walk all three dogs off the lead and we passed a 12 week old border terrier puppy on a lead so stopped to talk to her the next second Duke charged back to us and went for the pup no damaged done thankfully and they were very understanding. One thing I am grateful for is he has never caused any damaged at all to any dog even Charlie but I have had my warning now must be very careful.

If anyone has any other advice for me I would be very gateful.

[Canis-Lupess]

I wouldn't get bogged down with the leadership thing as it usually doesn't help. You are naturally their leader anyway...they rely on you for food, walks, interactions...pretty much everything....all this makes you leader auto and dogs don't spend their time plotting to overthrow their owners, or other dogs for that matter, as previously believed anyway...but I prefer to regard myself as more of a parent figure...an example setter...a teacher who shows them how to live in a human family home, to my dogs. I could tell that this wasn't a herding thing either but I think I said that, along with others, over at ruffdogs too so...

What you need to concentrate on more is conditioning Duke to feel more positive about having Charlie, or any other dog, near you. Sleet used to not like other dogs coming to me for fusses out on walks although she never reacted as aggressively as Duke...but by fussing her at the same time etc...or even feeding dreaded treats (Wasn't very often as I don't usually take treats on walks but it certainly had effect when I had them on the odd occasion), she learnt that other dogs near me meant good things and learnt nothing bad was going to happen...so she stopped trying to drive them off me....now she usually goes to the other dogs owner to swindle a game of fetch...and takes no notice of that owners dog having fusses off me.:p I think if I had her onlead though and somebody elses dog tried to jump up at me, she'd still box them down, lol:P She doesn't do it with Wren so it's not jealousy...she knows nothing bad will happen when Wren does it and is used to it...but that doesn't apply to other dogs in her opinion...thats something we have to teach them.

One thing I will say is that Duke must be inhibiting his bite...hence no damage done...which is a good sign. The outbursts are not dominance but rather anxiety...he's worried that either charlie or other dogs near you is a prelude to something bad which is why he tries to prevent that situation by going for the other dog....so don't create something negative for him that he associates with other dogs near you...it needs to be ALL good. The attacks are simply avoidance behaviour, not dominance.
Teaching some simple double tricks like charlie running under Duke will also help...because the dogs get used to you interacting with and working with them together. My two do lots of double tricks...they are used to being worked together and seperate...it definitely makes a difference. They learn to rely on each other to gain things they want from me.

[maggie46]

This is a good series of articles on "Living with dog-dog resource guarding" - it focuses on food to begin with in the articles but it could be any valuable resource:

http://pawsitivedawgs.wordpress.com/2011/0...ourceguarding1/ (some background on the behaviour and why it happens)

http://pawsitivedawgs.wordpress.com/2011/0...ourceguarding2/ (prevention and management techniques to prevent behaviour rehearsal – as the more Duke practices this behaviour, the better he gets! And then the behaviour could escalate to an even more aggressive response the next time)

http://pawsitivedawgs.wordpress.com/2011/0...ourceguarding3/ (training modification methods/techniques - the key is to teach Duke to be more comfortable in these situations and give him more appropriate alternatives to aggression and stress)

She also says that "Resource guarding is a stress response and is usually seen with over-arousal due to the presence of food and other dogs. Teaching dogs to be calmer, to cope with stress and manage their own responses to exciting situations will also help." Anne has a blog series on this too: http://pawsitivedawgs.wordpress.com/crazy-canines/

Some examples are matwork and crate training exercises: "Teaching your guarding dog and other dogs in the household to lie on, settle and stay on a mat is really helpful as it separates dogs, increases their proximity from one another, gives them each a safe place to hang out and can help with self calming too."

Hopefully that might help a bit.

PS: she does mention using a muzzle with the 'guarder' as a potential management technique while training but obviously adjust the suggestions to what you think suitable - with Duke it sounds like it would be enough to have him tethered whilst doing the exercises. Much if it is written as if it is food but I think a lot of the stuff can easily be modified to be 'your attention' as the resource.

[Merlin]

Stitches out this morning :-)